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Ayatollah wrote:

collige wrote:DC is part of the place where you propose banning guns. It didn't work.

yeah no shit, who would have thought that you needed a consistent nationwide policy?

A few points on this:
-You'd except a complete ban on sale and possession would do SOMETHING. If anything this just goes to show that people will always get their guns from someplace else. This leads to my next point:
-The Mexican border. There are already tons of illegal people and drugs coming through, a gun ban would just make even more illegal weapons come through.
-Nationwide policies aren't followed. Look at the VTech massacre.

Anyway the whole point is moot since citizen ownership of weapons is written in to the Constitution any nationwide ban would just lead to more violence, rather than less. When people say "from my cold, dead hands" they mean it.

deadly habit wrote:here's a hint those school shootings had more to do with irresponsible and neglectful parents and staff at the schools who missed some obvious warning signs, not the fact that they got their hands on guns. i'm pretty sure even without guns they would have came up with an equally destructive plan (like say the failed homemade bombs at columbine)

except the failed homemade bombs failed and were not in any way "equally destructive".

so the UK doesn't have that many gun murders, but is #2 in assault victims in the world for starters among other things like #1 for kidnapping
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk- ... /cri-crime

Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Only case where this isn't the case is probably homicide, as the vast majority of these are reported. US homicides per 100.000 are way higher than in England or anywhere in Western Europe, actually. 65% of US homicides are by firearm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

every country is fucked up and not having guns doesn't do anything to curb it other than give the ones who have guns and the desire enough be it legal or government an easier power over life and death
harsher penalties on illegal guns won't do shit to curb the ones getting their hands on them, especially gangs.

That's bullshit. Don't you think we have gangs? Don't you think we have crime? We have all those problems but low murder rates and virtually no gun crime.

collige wrote:

Ayatollah wrote:

collige wrote:DC is part of the place where you propose banning guns. It didn't work.

yeah no shit, who would have thought that you needed a consistent nationwide policy?

A few points on this:
-You'd except a complete ban on sale and possession would do SOMETHING. If anything this just goes to show that people will always get their guns from someplace else. This leads to my next point:
-The Mexican border. There are already tons of illegal people and drugs coming through, a gun ban would just make even more illegal weapons come through.
-Nationwide policies aren't followed. Look at the VTech massacre.

People will always get their guns from someplace else as long as it is readily available nearby. Which leads to MY next point: Mexico actually has a very strict gun policy and gun smuggling actually happens mostly from the US to Mexico, not the other way around.

Anyway the whole point is moot since citizen ownership of weapons is written in to the Constitution any nationwide ban would just lead to more violence, rather than less. When people say "from my cold, dead hands" they mean it.

wow so we agree that the problem here is that a lot of americans have a hard-on for guns.

collige wrote: -The Mexican border. There are already tons of illegal people and drugs coming through, a gun ban would just make even more illegal weapons come through.

ehhhh not so certain. Truth is not many guns actually come through mexico. Infact most mexican gangs will pay you to buy semi automatic weapons and bring them across the border because its so hard to get weapons in mexico.

Most of the weapons come from the US. A ban would likely lead to reduced production (in the us at least) so not sure how that would effect things fully.


Truth is, you could ban guns tomorrow and you'd have enough weapons to last literally generations. The damage is already done

Ayatollah wrote:

deadly habit wrote:here's a hint those school shootings had more to do with irresponsible and neglectful parents and staff at the schools who missed some obvious warning signs, not the fact that they got their hands on guns. i'm pretty sure even without guns they would have came up with an equally destructive plan (like say the failed homemade bombs at columbine)

except the failed homemade bombs failed and were not in any way "equally destructive".

so the UK doesn't have that many gun murders, but is #2 in assault victims in the world for starters among other things like #1 for kidnapping
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk- ... /cri-crime

Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Only case where this isn't the case is probably homicide, as the vast majority of these are reported. US homicides per 100.000 are way higher than in England or anywhere in Western Europe, actually. 65% of US homicides are by firearm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

every country is fucked up and not having guns doesn't do anything to curb it other than give the ones who have guns and the desire enough be it legal or government an easier power over life and death
harsher penalties on illegal guns won't do shit to curb the ones getting their hands on them, especially gangs.

That's bullshit. Don't you think we have gangs? Don't you think we have crime? We have all those problems but low murder rates and virtually no gun crime.

probably because you actually have law enforcement that can manage their criminals rather than babysit

Ayatollah wrote:
Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Only case where this isn't the case is probably homicide, as the vast majority of these are reported. US homicides per 100.000 are way higher than in England or anywhere in Western Europe, actually. 65% of US homicides are by firearm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate
[/b]

if you scroll down and open up the US average thing you'll see some places are more violent than others. Some of the most violent areas are places with strong gun laws..... and states with the most severe gun charges are still some of the most violent.

The more relevant factor is financial situations, drug trade, unemployment relevance, population, etc. Not whether guns are legal or illegal. These are relevant worldwide. Crime and poverty go hand in hand. If someone is going to kill they're going to kill be it gun, knife, rock, or wet noodle

Ayatollah wrote:

Anyway the whole point is moot since citizen ownership of weapons is written in to the Constitution any nationwide ban would just lead to more violence, rather than less. When people say "from my cold, dead hands" they mean it.

wow so we agree that the problem here is that a lot of americans have a hard-on for guns.

I agree that a lot of a americans have a hard-on for guns, but I wouldn't say it's THE problem. As it's been stated earlier, the legal gun owners saying "from my cold dead hands" are not the people who are going out shooting people. How many murders are committed by NRA members?

In response to your point about gangs, the US has it much, much worse than anywhere in the UK. Look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ga ... ted_States
I grew up in the 8th richest county in the country and there were MS-13 members in my MIDDLE school ffs.

pkay wrote:

collige wrote: -The Mexican border. There are already tons of illegal people and drugs coming through, a gun ban would just make even more illegal weapons come through.

ehhhh not so certain. Truth is not many guns actually come through mexico. Infact most mexican gangs will pay you to buy semi automatic weapons and bring them across the border because its so hard to get weapons in mexico.

Most of the weapons come from the US. A ban would likely lead to reduced production (in the us at least) so not sure how that would effect things fully.


Truth is, you could ban guns tomorrow and you'd have enough weapons to last literally generations. The damage is already done

Fair enough. Consider me corrected on the Mexico bit.

There are around 1.1 Million guns here in NZ. There are about 4million people here.

Most gun owners here own multiple firearms, so its not right to say that 25% of the population are armed, and would suggest most owners are in rural areas. Still that means we have a shitload more guns than most countries and quite a low gun crime rate here.

When there is gun crime, its mostly gang related (so criminal on criminal) or suicide - which is a consensual crime. Point being is that high rate of firearm ownership does not mean the place is more dangerous (pistols and assuault rifles are heaviliy restricted here, but it doesn't stop criminals getting them as criminals have this funny habit of not obeying the law).

I personally have about 6 firearms in my bedroom...

With the advent of drugs like Meth etc, I think you'll see a lot more gun crime here though. I.e. as a result of prohibition, you will see more crime, funny that.

Also while UK has fuck all gun murders, you have a serious problem with knife crime. point being take guns out of the equation, and they will just be substituted with something else, all you are doing is preventing law abiding citizens from using them.

Also interesting to note, in the states, most of the places where there are mass shooting are places where guns are banned, .... lets face it if you were a nutter planning on going out in a blaze of glory, would you hit a school (unarmed target rich environment) or say a NRA convention (where you'd get shot in seconds)...

Switzerland kind of prooves this again, that a well armed, trained civilian population is a good deterrant for violent crime (and it also keeps the government in check, and those pesky germans at bay)

collige wrote:

pkay wrote:

collige wrote: -The Mexican border. There are already tons of illegal people and drugs coming through, a gun ban would just make even more illegal weapons come through.

ehhhh not so certain. Truth is not many guns actually come through mexico. Infact most mexican gangs will pay you to buy semi automatic weapons and bring them across the border because its so hard to get weapons in mexico.

Most of the weapons come from the US. A ban would likely lead to reduced production (in the us at least) so not sure how that would effect things fully.


Truth is, you could ban guns tomorrow and you'd have enough weapons to last literally generations. The damage is already done

Fair enough. Consider me corrected on the Mexico bit.

though if they banned guns here im sure mexico would legalize them to have some type of industry.

to be honest id rather be shot than stabbed.

pkay wrote:to be honest id rather be shot than stabbed.

had both, being stabbed sucks, shot burns like hell
i'm with you on this

We all saw this map of homicides per capita here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png

Which looks almost exactly the same as this map showing economic inequality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_ ... t_2009.svg

What are we trying to get rid of, guns or murders?

MikeE wrote:
I personally have about 6 firearms in my bedroom...

i have friends in atlanta, GA that have guns spread out all over their house. i think he said he had 9 guns, 9 guns to protect him, his wife and their two sons. he's already taught his wife to shoot, load and take care of nearly all of the weapons. most of the population of atlanta has guns in their houses. georgia's gun law allows for unrestricted open use of guns while inside your house. they also have a pretty severe home intruder defense law in georgia. if someone breaks in your house, you can legally open fire on them while they are inside your house. if you happen to kill the intruder its manslaughter, and not murder.
y

pkay wrote: though if they banned guns here im sure mexican cartels would divert US Military shipments, import plans, create factories, exploit locals and have a stronghold over firearms in North America

fixed

noam wrote:

knell wrote:yep, the situation needs reform, not banning..

to put it in context... try banning guns in South Africa... herp that'll fix everything the homicide rate will plummet derp derp

a more sensible comparison to make would be countries of equal economic status as the USA, such as western european nations like Germany, France, UK

herp a derp all you want, it still just is a case of you wanting guns cos you want one and you dont want to be told you cant have one.

something it has also appeared has slipped people by in this thread, is that in countries where guns are banned (in a general way); you cant get hold of them in a supermarket. if you can buy a gun in a supermarket, how hard do you think it is to get hold of one illegally if you dont have a license??

i almost feel sorry for you dudes, cos it seems like so many of you, a lot of really smart clever people, have totally been worn down by the seeming cavalcade of violent crime spread across certain area's of your country. it seems like your outlook is so bleak you aren't prepared to entertain the genuine logical answer to the problem, or at least the first step in dealing with it.

i do get it... its the paranoia of knowing other people are as paranoid as you, its a nasty cycle.

but when we get cases of mass murders in schools where the kids have got weapons and bought bullets from supermarkets, using gang violence as a get out clause as to why you should still be able to buy a gun is weak, angsty, paranoid crap. guns should be banned over there for the simple fact that it'll just save more lives - deal with the gangs later, look after the citizens first. theres 100's of deaths that could have been prevented - and you wana write off those lives because you feel threatened by the illegal trade in arms?? 2 different problems. 2 very different solutions.

Could not agree more, my hat off to you noam!

MikeE wrote:There are around 1.1 Million guns here in NZ. There are about 4million people here.

Most gun owners here own multiple firearms, so its not right to say that 25% of the population are armed, and would suggest most owners are in rural areas. Still that means we have a shitload more guns than most countries and quite a low gun crime rate here.

When there is gun crime, its mostly gang related (so criminal on criminal) or suicide - which is a consensual crime. Point being is that high rate of firearm ownership does not mean the place is more dangerous (pistols and assuault rifles are heaviliy restricted here, but it doesn't stop criminals getting them as criminals have this funny habit of not obeying the law).

I personally have about 6 firearms in my bedroom...

With the advent of drugs like Meth etc, I think you'll see a lot more gun crime here though. I.e. as a result of prohibition, you will see more crime, funny that.

Also while UK has fuck all gun murders, you have a serious problem with knife crime. point being take guns out of the equation, and they will just be substituted with something else, all you are doing is preventing law abiding citizens from using them.

Also interesting to note, in the states, most of the places where there are mass shooting are places where guns are banned, .... lets face it if you were a nutter planning on going out in a blaze of glory, would you hit a school (unarmed target rich environment) or say a NRA convention (where you'd get shot in seconds)...

Switzerland kind of prooves this again, that a well armed, trained civilian population is a good deterrant for violent crime (and it also keeps the government in check, and those pesky germans at bay)

hardcase... pretty much all I was thinking about while reading this thread!!'

espesh the part about Switzerland!! Compulsory military & ya keep ya gun when ya get out ah.

whats lacking in America & most western countries around the world, is discipline & a good kick up the ass!!

the most horrid thing about the US system is... suing cats for bullshit & getting mega payouts...
its a bigger problem than guns!

NEED A BIG STICK OF HARDEN THE FUCK UP!

!!chea

noam wrote:

a more sensible comparison to make would be countries of equal economic status as the USA, such as western european nations like Germany, France, UK

Wrong already. West european countries are among the best for economic equality. The united states is no where close.

MikeE wrote:There are around 1.1 Million guns here in NZ. There are about 4million people here.

Most gun owners here own multiple firearms, so its not right to say that 25% of the population are armed, and would suggest most owners are in rural areas. Still that means we have a shitload more guns than most countries and quite a low gun crime rate here.

When there is gun crime, its mostly gang related (so criminal on criminal) or suicide - which is a consensual crime. Point being is that high rate of firearm ownership does not mean the place is more dangerous (pistols and assuault rifles are heaviliy restricted here, but it doesn't stop criminals getting them as criminals have this funny habit of not obeying the law).

I personally have about 6 firearms in my bedroom...

With the advent of drugs like Meth etc, I think you'll see a lot more gun crime here though. I.e. as a result of prohibition, you will see more crime, funny that.

Also while UK has fuck all gun murders, you have a serious problem with knife crime. point being take guns out of the equation, and they will just be substituted with something else, all you are doing is preventing law abiding citizens from using them.

Also interesting to note, in the states, most of the places where there are mass shooting are places where guns are banned, .... lets face it if you were a nutter planning on going out in a blaze of glory, would you hit a school (unarmed target rich environment) or say a NRA convention (where you'd get shot in seconds)...

Switzerland kind of prooves this again, that a well armed, trained civilian population is a good deterrant for violent crime (and it also keeps the government in check, and those pesky germans at bay)

agree with all of that

noam i applaud the sentiment but you're missing the point. of course having guns so much more widely available makes gun crime easier but the availability of guns is the not the issue because countries with as many guns as america don't have half the problem that america has. also, you can't apply the same arguments that work in regards to britain when you're talking about america. aside from the very obvious cultural/psychological issues that make gun crime so prevalent in the US, the nature of its borders make getting rid of guns so much more difficult. britain is an island state so it's so much more easy to protect its borders from smuggling and so on, not to mention the fact that it doesn't share borders with other countries that have a lot of guns, and with countries that have a massive criminal underworld (mexico) that will have no problem in getting guns into the country so that they can be used by the criminals that are responsible for the vast majority of murders. with guns already being so commonplace in america banning them will have little difference - it's putting a plaster on someone who's missing half a leg and expecting it to fix things

tyson wrote:

noam wrote:

a more sensible comparison to make would be countries of equal economic status as the USA, such as western european nations like Germany, France, UK

Wrong already. West european countries are among the best for economic equality. The united states is no where close.

It makes even less sense to compare it to the 10th most unequal country in the world, South Africa, which was the original comparison.

pkay wrote:
though if they banned guns here im sure mexico would legalize them to have some type of industry.

Are you serious? Do you really think that's how it works? Mexico has some of the toughest gun laws in the world and has a hard time with massive weapon smuggling from the US to Mexico already!