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plastician wrote:Basically I'm here to throw a cog in the works.

in 2005, every DJ at DMZ was playing music at 140 bpm (70bpm if we are talking the half step stuff). This is without exception. There were slight trends like the grime stuff and the mellow stuff and also a little bit of the early lfo / midrange stuff but it was always at the same tempo.

So, if we're talking about heritage, real dubstep, 'that sound' then why is nobody moaning about all this house / juke / 130 bpm stuff DJ's are playing nowadays?

You did throw a cog in the works... momentarily

snypadub wrote:For me the tearout dancefloor stuff doesn't work. Not because of evolution but for me, and i'm gunna come across as elitist but hey I have an opinion, because it is lacking what I look for in music; I like music with a hell of a lot of bass. I am a junkie for sub bass regardless of genre. It can be a km and leon switch track or a loxy and resound track, it could be a cyrus 140 roller or a roska housey beat, it doesn't matter about genre to me it really doesn't. For me great music comprises the following elements (and again this is my taste and not anybody elses): Sub bass, originality, and passion.

I think a lot of this tearout stuff, wether you want to call it brostep (I really hate that term though) or whatever, lacks some of these elements. A lot of it sounds too similar (and i know there are loads of sub low tunes that the same could be said for). I think that whole high end screechy thing has been done to death. I genuinely like some of that stuff honestly do, and it really sends a dancefloor mad.
I was listening to one of your shows on rinse recently and you played loads of tearout and it sounded great, N-type pulls it off to. The thing is You still pay respect and give a platform to variety and skreams set lacked that. The vast majority of it was tearout, and there wasn't enough variation for me to feel it

^
THIS

plastician wrote:in 2005, every DJ at DMZ was playing music at 140 bpm (70bpm if we are talking the half step stuff). This is without exception. There were slight trends like the grime stuff and the mellow stuff and also a little bit of the early lfo / midrange stuff but it was always at the same tempo.

So, if we're talking about heritage, real dubstep, 'that sound' then why is nobody moaning about all this house / juke / 130 bpm stuff DJ's are playing nowadays?

I think its because a lot of people on this forum are just sheep following trends set by DJ's deemed to be "acceptable" or "cool" on this forum.

The difference I think is that those that went / listened in expect James Blake, Addison Groove etc to play that sort of stuff as it's what they're known for and what they've recently started or have always produced. With Skream and Benga we know that they can and often do play out tearout, just wasn't perhaps expecting almost a full set of it, especially at DMZ. DMZ has always attracted purists and indeed catered for them, just like this forum: surely S&B can take a little criticism, even if some of it's been slightly over the top, when they've disappointed a lot of people who have always and still have the utmost respect for them. It just wasn't that great a set or a selection, especially when compared to what they played at the Rinse+FWD parties last year.

plastician wrote: I just think its unfair that Skream is on the end of what sounds like a childish backlash from the majority of people on here.

In all honesty i don't think Skream handled it in a particularly mature way either though. "Seems we upset a few people.... To you I say...... FUCK OFFFFFFF!" which he tweeted at 6 in the morning after DMZ. Hardly anyone had said anything on here until after that. I expect this would of blown over alot quicker if it hadn't of been for the series of comments slating people who post on here from a variety of artists and people in involved in the scene, Caspa especially.

Artists need to realise that they're in the public eye now if they talk like that to their fans people will talk about it. If they choose to act a bit more professionally and either rise above the criticism or acknowledge a difference of opinion there wouldn't be loads of threads about this shit.

I didn't like Loefah's set.

skream's sets usually are hit & miss. just go next door if you don't like it.

this has completely been blown out of proportion.

AJP UK wrote:

plastician wrote:Basically I'm here to throw a cog in the works.

in 2005, every DJ at DMZ was playing music at 140 bpm (70bpm if we are talking the half step stuff). This is without exception. There were slight trends like the grime stuff and the mellow stuff and also a little bit of the early lfo / midrange stuff but it was always at the same tempo.

So, if we're talking about heritage, real dubstep, 'that sound' then why is nobody moaning about all this house / juke / 130 bpm stuff DJ's are playing nowadays?

You did throw a cog in the works... momentarily

snypadub wrote:For me the tearout dancefloor stuff doesn't work. Not because of evolution but for me, and i'm gunna come across as elitist but hey I have an opinion, because it is lacking what I look for in music; I like music with a hell of a lot of bass. I am a junkie for sub bass regardless of genre. It can be a km and leon switch track or a loxy and resound track, it could be a cyrus 140 roller or a roska housey beat, it doesn't matter about genre to me it really doesn't. For me great music comprises the following elements (and again this is my taste and not anybody elses): Sub bass, originality, and passion.

I think a lot of this tearout stuff, wether you want to call it brostep (I really hate that term though) or whatever, lacks some of these elements. A lot of it sounds too similar (and i know there are loads of sub low tunes that the same could be said for). I think that whole high end screechy thing has been done to death. I genuinely like some of that stuff honestly do, and it really sends a dancefloor mad.
I was listening to one of your shows on rinse recently and you played loads of tearout and it sounded great, N-type pulls it off to. The thing is You still pay respect and give a platform to variety and skreams set lacked that. The vast majority of it was tearout, and there wasn't enough variation for me to feel it

^
THIS

That is a very valid point but if anything it still doesn't make the juke / funky stuff "real dubstep". It is a well explained reason for not enjoying the tearout in the same way as they enjoy the new jukey and funky stuff when compared to the old sound. But it still doesn't mean that the juke / funky is any more true to the original sound than the tearout stuff.

Its just another strain of it, this is somebody's reasoning for enjoying it in reference to the old sound - and it's definitely a feeling shared by many of the people on this forum - something I respect, and we all should.

But in the same vein we should respect that, to other people, the tearout stuff is also enjoyable and is their understanding of what they know as "real dubstep".

In reality, both of these sounds could not be further away from what we were all (literally) nodding our heads to at DMZ in 2005. The only thing they share is that they grew from the same roots..... Some characteristics of these roots has translated more transparently than others and we all interpret those likenesses in our own unique ways. Hence the discussions and hatred of the opposing styles coming from both corners of the argument.

aliasa wrote:

plastician wrote: I just think its unfair that Skream is on the end of what sounds like a childish backlash from the majority of people on here.

In all honesty i don't think Skream handled it in a particularly mature way either though. "Seems we upset a few people.... To you I say...... FUCK OFFFFFFF!" which he tweeted at 6 in the morning after DMZ. Hardly anyone had said anything on here until after that. I expect this would of blown over alot quicker if it hadn't of been for the series of comments slating people who post on here from a variety of artists and people in involved in the scene, Caspa especially.

Artists need to realise that they're in the public eye now if they talk like that to their fans people will talk about it. If they choose to act a bit more professionally and either rise above the criticism or acknowledge a difference of opinion there wouldn't be loads of threads about this shit.

It's easily said.

I for one can hold my hand up and say I've flown off the handle at some criticisms in the past, but most often this is not due to bad criticism, it's the manner in which this criticism is received which gets people so emotionally involved in these discussions.

If I had spent 6 months of my life building a mix / album to have it released only for somebody to write "this is such a load of shit..... there's better music out there... why do people even listen to this shit? I can't believe they're playing this stuff".... then its very easy to let your heart get in the way.

I don't know maybe I'm just too passionate about all this. If somebody shrugs off my work without proper reasoning then it does get to me - and thats why I can understand Skream's outburst. That is how it makes you feel sometimes.

g.dot wrote:skream's sets usually are hit & miss. just go next door if you don't like it.

this has completely been blown out of proportion.

yes it really has, i cant believe i read this and expected anything different.

everyone likes different things. djs shouldnt have got so angry because that just exacerbates, but critics shouldnt have been so judgemental - its not shit, its just not to your taste.

im not saying anything new with this post but then noone is

Oooo, what is that tune played before the RAW Dogz VIP. The one with the male vocal on it. Feeling it!

plastician wrote: That is a very valid point but if anything it still doesn't make the juke / funky stuff "real dubstep". It is a well explained reason for not enjoying the tearout in the same way as they enjoy the new jukey and funky stuff when compared to the old sound. But it still doesn't mean that the juke / funky is any more true to the original sound than the tearout stuff.

Its just another strain of it, this is somebody's reasoning for enjoying it in reference to the old sound - and it's definitely a feeling shared by many of the people on this forum - something I respect, and we all should.

But in the same vein we should respect that, to other people, the tearout stuff is also enjoyable and is their understanding of what they know as "real dubstep".

In reality, both of these sounds could not be further away from what we were all (literally) nodding our heads to at DMZ in 2005. The only thing they share is that they grew from the same roots..... Some characteristics of these roots has translated more transparently than others and we all interpret those likenesses in our own unique ways. Hence the discussions and hatred of the opposing styles coming from both corners of the argument.

You're right about them being further from the original sound, which is what most people here are all about. But you must be able to distinguish well-thought out, sub heavy, soulful production value LIKE the juke, 130, swamp stuff to a cataclysmic mash up, ear piercing, thoughtless production like the circus stuff, and that vip of raw dogz!? which however DOES incorporate bass etc... I think that's the only problem that people are having.

I gave up on the term dubstep a long while ago to be honest! It didn't really work out to well from the get go as the music was so varied it was confusing to try and describe one tune from the next under the dubstep unbrella. I refer to the music I like as being, simply, bass music. it encompasses all the different sounds comfortably and defines them equally. It really doesn't add the ambiguity of the name dubstep.

Dubstep simply describes a style of music that infuses 2-step and dub music and I feel it iunfair to use the term to describe certain tracks as they do not sit comfortably under the ambiguous term.

Bass music till I die

Most the music I love today would have been unthinkable dmz 05 material doesn't mean it deserves overlooking.
Back to the point in hand: As long as we push what we love and disregard what we don't we should all get on fine!
That kind of thinking helps the scene evolve, if enough people who regularly go to see a dj play out because they love that dj's particular style and the dj starts playing sets filled with music those people don't enjoy why don't we, instead of bitching about the dj (they obviously do enjoy the sounds they are pushing), stop going to said dj's gigs instead. That way the Dj gets a better impression of how the sound goes down and is able to adapt their style to suit the fans and all that jazz.

BTW I am in no way advocating we boycott skream at all and I think a certain level of compromise needs to be attained as skream still plays some absolute solid tunes.

plastician wrote: It's easily said.

I for one can hold my hand up and say I've flown off the handle at some criticisms in the past, but most often this is not due to bad criticism, it's the manner in which this criticism is received which gets people so emotionally involved in these discussions.

If I had spent 6 months of my life building a mix / album to have it released only for somebody to write "this is such a load of shit..... there's better music out there... why do people even listen to this shit? I can't believe they're playing this stuff".... then its very easy to let your heart get in the way.

I don't know maybe I'm just too passionate about all this. If somebody shrugs off my work without proper reasoning then it does get to me - and thats why I can understand Skream's outburst. That is how it makes you feel sometimes.

I can understand it completely, i've felt like that myself but I guess I feel that it really should be a case now that artists should consider having private and public twitter accounts etc. As often it's a case of actually just venting then venting at specific people. What do you think?

AJP UK wrote:

plastician wrote: That is a very valid point but if anything it still doesn't make the juke / funky stuff "real dubstep". It is a well explained reason for not enjoying the tearout in the same way as they enjoy the new jukey and funky stuff when compared to the old sound. But it still doesn't mean that the juke / funky is any more true to the original sound than the tearout stuff.

Its just another strain of it, this is somebody's reasoning for enjoying it in reference to the old sound - and it's definitely a feeling shared by many of the people on this forum - something I respect, and we all should.

But in the same vein we should respect that, to other people, the tearout stuff is also enjoyable and is their understanding of what they know as "real dubstep".

In reality, both of these sounds could not be further away from what we were all (literally) nodding our heads to at DMZ in 2005. The only thing they share is that they grew from the same roots..... Some characteristics of these roots has translated more transparently than others and we all interpret those likenesses in our own unique ways. Hence the discussions and hatred of the opposing styles coming from both corners of the argument.

You're right about them being further from the original sound, which is what most people here are all about. But you must be able to distinguish well-thought out, sub heavy, soulful production value LIKE the juke, 130, swamp stuff to a cataclysmic mash up, ear piercing, thoughtless production like the circus stuff, and that vip of raw dogz!? which however DOES incorporate bass etc... I think that's the only problem that people are having.

I love it all. And can hear both sides.

I actually don't find Circus thoughtless either. Maybe its cos I have a heavy grime influence as well. Back in 2003 I was playing sub heavy stuff along with the not quite as sub heavy (but still bassy) instrumental grime stuff - which provided a great deal more midrange to my sets than the dubstep stuff of those times.

I can liken Circus stuff as a cross between both those sounds I was playing back then, almost like a cross breed. The bass is there, the drums are in the traditional half step style, it's 140 bpm (like dubstep circa 2004 - 2006), and then the midrange is in there (much like instrumental grime circa 2002 - 2006).

Example - here's an instrumental grime tune I used to play back in 2003:



Sounds like Doctor P a bit doesn't it?

Same way I can liken the Juke and Funky stuff. Fair enough it's a completely different drum arrangement and the tempo is nothing like the old stuff, but it's production values are centered around bass, and rhythm - just like dubstep.

Obviously this is my interpretation, and people's ears work in different ways and also their musical backgrounds as well as what era they entered the sound will change their perception of dubstep.

Just explaining why I can understand it all. Whether any of it is dubstep any more is questionable, but then - why should we bother pigeon holing it further?

omg, why has this been drawn out for so long...some people thought it was sh1t...so what? some people need to get over themselves...you're gonna get negative comments sometimes...if skream, caspa and all of them had been mature about it and just ignored it and brushed it aside...imo it wouldn't have been blown out of proportion in the first place and would've just stayed in the little pocket of the internet where it originated from...it literally only got this amount of attention when someone noted skreams tweets...and fractal i understand where you're coming from and i agree with it to some extent...but every other forum on the internet does not have this problem where there's a stigma attached to expressing yourself whichever way they want to...and let's be honest with ourselves, this thread highlights it...people are being told basically to dilute their opinions and told that you can't say anything negative? what the hell is that all about, whats the point in having the forum then? because legitimate discussions need a BALANCE to make them progressive, we might as well turn the forum into a fan page if all we can do without being crucified by the artists and a certain amoutn of other people...can you not at least see thats what happening to some extent?


i mean, don't get me wrong, its brilliant that the artists come on here and you can physically interact with them (shout out to plasticman for voicing his opinion and educating, respect to you) but its a shame that people are basically not allowed to express anything other than praise to them...and in my original post..i explicitly said that straight out hating should never be condoned...


what i am championing is people being allowed to at least express themselves in whichever way they see fit as long as their argument is based on valid points, without feeling like they're gonna get crucified for it...now i ask, what is wrong with that?


oh and lastly, i will like to add before anyone assumes my angle with skream and benga's set....i have not expressed whether i liked it or not at all because i wasn't present at that set, i left DMZ when their set started because i have seen them plenty of times and the heat was too much for me...i am only defending the right to say what you want on here...


peace...(and really, if i was skream and benga, i would be at least be proud that people are so passionate about what they do and care about the music they bring out...and in the end, even if some people don't like the music they are selecting nowadays, i'm pretty sure at least 99% of the people on this board have the upmost respect for them)

ingo4life wrote:Oooo, what is that tune played before the RAW Dogz VIP. The one with the male vocal on it. Feeling it!

I think it's the new tune he did with Sam Frank!?

After listening to the set I can understand why people arent feeling it. I hated it, and im a huge fan of Skream and Benga and the sets they put together and the tracks they produce. I can see why theres all this fuss, DMZ is hardly a dubstep night at a uni with Skream headlining playing commercial or "brostep" (ergh). For the people that have been into dubstep and the heay sub bass sound since day dot, I can understand why it's jarring.

I mean we all know Benga and Skream have knocked out sick tracks from all ranges of the spectrum as far as variety is concerned, and I think many were expecting them to play a set more "suited" to a DMZ night, espeically considering the 2 of them have produced many many tracks that would fit in with whats expected at a DMZ night. Also, again with the variety thing, the 2 of them have enough knowledge and dubs to play out a set "suited" to this night, and I think most people, having heard the set, would have expected them to put out a more "tradtional" DMZ set.

However, im totally in agreement with the people defending the set. as much as I thought the set was poor, it didnt clear the floor from what I've read and people were still dancing. Their set also bought in another side of the genre, and personally at a night as big as DMZ surely you'd want all elements of the genre to be represented, rather than staying to a couple facets of it. The point standing that if you didnt like it, there was someone else spinning in room 2, probably something you would like. dont like it, dont stay, but appreciate that Skream and Benga bought another side to the night to help diversify it, which in the long run can only be good for the scene as a whole.

lami wrote: However, im totally in agreement with the people defending the set. as much as I thought the set was poor, it didnt clear the floor from what I've read and people were still dancing. Their set also bought in another side of the genre, and personally at a night as big as DMZ surely you'd want all elements of the genre to be represented, rather than staying to a couple facets of it. The point standing that if you didnt like it, there was someone else spinning in room 2, probably something you would like. dont like it, dont stay, but appreciate that Skream and Benga bought another side to the night to help diversify it, which in the long run can only be good for the scene as a whole.

I agree with this.

We need more sonically diverse nights

the amount of coke skream bangs up his hooter has probably convinced him that this aggro shite is an acceptable form of 'music'.

I think Genevieve pretty much expressed my thoughts exactly as well.

Genevieve wrote:

plastician wrote:Theres a lot of people saying stuff on this thread about "real dubstep" at DMZ.......

spaniard wrote:People are pissed cause dmz aint about that style of music otherwise we'd have Doctor P, Datsik, Excision, Flux Pavilion and Cookie Monsta at every dmz.

syhr wrote:bullshit. i expect 95% of DJs on this forum could draw a better, more DMZ appropriate set than was played. but they don't have the profile, so aint gonna get booked.

people trying to hush the haters are really underestimating how much DMZ, 'that sound' and the heritage of the event mean to people. that set wouldn't have got this reaction if it was played at any other event in the entire world, which is why people are so much less forgiving. it's like the last bastion of what real dubstep means has been lost to the moshcunts.

OK....

Basically I'm here to throw a cog in the works.

in 2005, every DJ at DMZ was playing music at 140 bpm (70bpm if we are talking the half step stuff). This is without exception. There were slight trends like the grime stuff and the mellow stuff and also a little bit of the early lfo / midrange stuff but it was always at the same tempo.

So, if we're talking about heritage, real dubstep, 'that sound' then why is nobody moaning about all this house / juke / 130 bpm stuff DJ's are playing nowadays?

I think its because a lot of people on this forum are just sheep following trends set by DJ's deemed to be "acceptable" or "cool" on this forum.

Theres a lot of talk about how this new tearout strain of dubstep is so far away from the "original DMZ vibe and sound" and that is your reason to hate it.

But so is everything released on Swamp 81, Night Slugs, and all the other much loved labels on this forum. Yet when people draw for this sound (in my opinion even further away from the "original" sound) there's no problem with it? A lot of this stuff is built at 96bpm / 130 bpm and owes a lot of it's roots more to techno than croydon dubstep.

You lot need to work out a proper reason for disliking hearing this sound at dmz.... because it clearly has nothing to do with it not being "the original sound".

Truth of the matter is simple: music evolves. We aren't all going to like the same forms of this evolution. DMZ has celebrated this evolution for 6 years and embraces it with open arms, and its a breath of fresh air that people can hear the likes of Doctor P and Flux Pavilion alongside names like James Blake and Addison Groove in my opinion.

We all need to accept that the music changes and it's ok if you don't like it all. What nobody on here (other than Mala / Coki / Loefah / Pokes) can do is make assumptions on what is or isn't acceptable music to play at DMZ. If you enjoy the juke stuff or the funky and feel that has a place at DMZ, you should also embrace other forms of the sound - whether u like it or not we all came from the same place and it all has a place within the scene in some form.

Sorry for the rant. I just think people on here need a reality check. You can't knock something for not being true to original dubstep if you're willing to embrace stuff not even made at the same tempo as the sound represented at the first DMZ events.

DMZ is and always will be a place to "meditate on bass weight". It isn't a place to be a snob. I obviously don't represent DMZ with this view, but its always been my perception of the vibe of the night since attending the very first one at 3rd Bass. Some people just like to meditate to different frequencies of bass, this is life - and this is dubstep as we know it.

Alright so...

I was at the DMZ in Amsterdam and I too wasn't crazy about Skream (though I did leave his set early), but I was simply not into it. It has nothing to do with what DMZ or dubstep's 'supposedly about' in my view.

I did enjoy Loefah's hip-house/electro-hop/acid influenced set, greatly. As well as Kode9's funky.

I'm really not one of the heads who thinks 'dubstep' or hell, even DMZ should be about a 'certain' thing.

So I'm not at all in the same camp as the people who complained about Skream, even though I myself don't like the Doctor P/Funtcase/Excision side of things (though I do like my harder shit and filth in the form of let's say... Milanese or Broken Note), I'm not gonna hold him playing that stuff against him.

Besides, he's been down with DMZ since day one. His view on what it 'should' be like is more educated than mine.

Anyway, to no longer beat around the bush. When I experienced the DMZ in Amsterdam, I kinda felt like I got a taste of what the UK underground is like. I'm not from London, so really, I'm not gonna claim that my opinion is all that educated.

But if my 7 hour experience of DMZ in Amsterdam is an accurate representation of what the London underground is about, musically, I thought to myself 'has dubstep, not as a style, but as a cultural phenomenon already happened?' I'm not saying that the music isn't hot anymore and that no one produces or enjoys or parties to that 140 bpm, deep bass sound anymore. But it seems that the movement as a whole has changed from being about a certain tempo/rhythm, to a mindset.

Nothing that James Blake, Kode9 and Loefah did, was rhythmically similar. The tempos and rhythms and influences were different. But nothing sounded out of place. I don't think that Loefah really sounded like a black dude with a sequencer from late '80s Chicago. I mean, he definitely took cues from the Chicago scene, but the overal vibe that I got from the music he played was the same vibe I got later on in the night from Digital Mystikz.

People may say they go for a certain 'sound' to DMZ, but I don't think the sound is reflected by tempo, or rhythm, or whatever, but by a certain vibe. And Loefah's 808 shit, to me, came closer to that 'vibe' than, let's say, Flux Pavillion's strain of dubstep does.

You can get a similar feel and vibe out of different sounding music, and you can get a different feel and vibe out of similar sounding music. Godspeed You! Black Emperor have more 'black metal' vibes to me, despite sonically probably being closer to Sigur Rós, who give off more of a dream pop vibe to me.

You can't restrict 'sound' to a rhythm or tempo.

lami wrote: but appreciate that Skream and Benga bought another side to the night to help diversify it, which in the long run can only be good for the scene as a whole.

I agree that they do diversify it, take for example their Radio 1 sets which they incorporate all parts of the spectrum from a 140 to 130 to deep to screechy which I and most respect, but as someone who was present I didn't see much diversity; instead a whole lot of emphasis on this 'music' the argument is centred about (not talking about bpm) A t/l would be nice....