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dj0045 wrote:

64hz wrote:

DRTY wrote:Language. Without that there'd be none of the above

beat me to it. but can it be considered an achievment of humanity or is it just an achievment of evolution?

otherwise it would be this shit:

french?

que?

i just meant art in general

noam wrote:as a point why do a lot of you regard language as an 'achievement'

in itself its certainly one of the most fundamental aspects of being a human, both spoken and written, but isn't language supposedly innate in some way... our ability to use language grows, it isn't learned (until later when it MUST be learned)

our linguistic skills are in-built, fundamental and intrinsic properties of being human... in that way language was never a goal, language was a natural tool, thus language was never strived for and thus not 'achieved' in the sense of the word i assume is being used in the question at hand.

the only languages i can think of which could be seen as a human achievement are translations of language into new symbolic forms such as forms of logic, mathematics, sign language, certain forms of code (not sure if computer code would be classed as morse code since the informative content is seemingly different... one is controlling electrical information, the other describing thought/language based content in a symbolic form)

whaddewethink?

Yep yep, good point actually. I suppose the various scripts out there is a big achievement however. Also, yes, mathematics as a whole is definitely up there.

noam wrote:got some reading on this, im not saying you're wrong, i've just never actually read into this argument before

smoke some dmt and then try to describe it with words

Alty wrote:

noam wrote:as a point why do a lot of you regard language as an 'achievement'

in itself its certainly one of the most fundamental aspects of being a human, both spoken and written, but isn't language supposedly innate in some way... our ability to use language grows, it isn't learned (until later when it MUST be learned)

our linguistic skills are in-built, fundamental and intrinsic properties of being human... in that way language was never a goal, language was a natural tool, thus language was never strived for and thus not 'achieved' in the sense of the word i assume is being used in the question at hand.

the only languages i can think of which could be seen as a human achievement are translations of language into new symbolic forms such as forms of logic, mathematics, sign language, certain forms of code (not sure if computer code would be classed as morse code since the informative content is seemingly different... one is controlling electrical information, the other describing thought/language based content in a symbolic form)

whaddewethink?

I was assuming that language isn't innate, humans haven't always been able to use it and if a group of kids were born and raised away from other humans then they probably wouldn't learn how to use language and it would take generations of learning and gradually passing on to get it- so it is something that has been developed like starting fires or hunting so is an achievement in human progress. I dunno if that's true though!

And yeah guess it could be seen as a barrier if you think there could be more advanced forms of communication, but surely everything is a step towards the next thing. The propellor wouldn't be seen as a barrier to jet engines being developed.

this guy says the new language is emerging as a game

Language isn't humanities achievement as it predates humanity, bees and chickens and gorillas and pretty much every other thing on the planet have some form of communication, even lots of them have throats and words and grunts. Humans refined it yes, they invented poetry and bullshit and philosophy. Some of the next steps in language bottling it into books or throwing it around the planet and out of lcd monitors is pretty unique and commendable but I don't think it's our greatest achievement.

I would say recreational sex but Bonobos have that too.

Inventing the idea of humanity is a big step, or god or any abstract things that aren't really in front of you.

For something more real and quantifiable how about the Large Hadron Collider, that thing is the limit of our science, and currently easily the hottest place in the Universe, hotter than the heart of the biggest star, hotter than anywhere has been for 13 billion years. That's something.

The computer chip is the most practically useful thing we ever made, not just for what we have so far, but for what it will become. I read that they have computers programs now that spit out laws of nature, evolutionary computer programs, basically we give them lots of data, and throw millions of random equations at them, then they breed the equations together that work the best, so after several generations they find equations that fit the data given. This is interesting because we can create evolution in our toys. It's interesting because we'll soon be at the point where these programs will be telling us all sorts of laws about the world that we won't understand, all we'll know is that they work. Basically the computer chip is the achievement that will let us surpass ourselves, and our capabilities.

I would say art though, to be honest.

christophera wrote:

noam wrote:got some reading on this, im not saying you're wrong, i've just never actually read into this argument before

smoke some dmt and then try to describe it with words

Pretty much all I did for the couple days after I did it. Got quite close but it is indeed impossible.

art is the best answer thus far

limb wrote: I would say art though, to be honest.

This

christophera wrote:

noam wrote:got some reading on this, im not saying you're wrong, i've just never actually read into this argument before

smoke some dmt and then try to describe it with words

its almost a guarantee i couldn't do it justice...

that isn't to say that there aren't people creative and expressive enough to do so

fuck DMT.

try Love.

at least pretty much everyone can relate to that example

and the finest wordsmiths who've ever lived have spent their lives dedicated to expressing those feelings with words...

for those that said art, many artforms are word based, the so-called king of the arts is Poetry after all...

language isn't just the system of communication but is used as an artform

in this case i'd say Poetry could be considered humanity's greatest achievement (if you think it is or whatever, i dont) but 'language' per se' couldn't.

language is insufficient. bottom line.

my personal opinion is that art/science/philosophy/religion are all aspects of the same thing, compartmentalized for easier understanding, but are components of a whole.

christophera wrote:language is insufficient. bottom line.

Well, for once we agree, I suppose.

Language is a rigid construct that is made to express unrigid concepts (emotions). There can't be enough words in the world to accurately describe something as complex as a human emotion or thought.

will somebody PLEASE acknowledge the wheel!!!!

language is as insufficient as your imagination makes it...

as i said, any failure of language to express your thoughts is a failure of yourself, not of language

in a way, we could say that what language lacks is direct, material representation - i.e. if i thought of something what would be easier, being able to write it down or being able to MAKE someone simply understand and experience my thought directly? obviously the latter. but i dont think language is insufficient because it isn't direct, i think language has given us new thoughts and idea's we'd maybe never have had if it wasn't for the depth of how it stimulates us in different ways

oh @ Clifford: FUCK THE WHEEL

that's incorrect on more levels than i care to get involved with. i'm gonna find something else to do before i waste my day here.

clifford_- wrote:will somebody PLEASE acknowledge the wheel!!!!

Wheeeeeeeeeeel up and come again!

christophera wrote:that's incorrect on more levels than i care to get involved with. i'm gonna find something else to do before i waste my day here.

cityzen wrote:

clifford_- wrote:will somebody PLEASE acknowledge the wheel!!!!

Wheeeeeeeeeeel up and come again!

@ noam

noam wrote:language is as insufficient as your imagination makes it...

as i said, any failure of language to express your thoughts is a failure of yourself, not of language

in a way, we could say that what language lacks is direct, material representation - i.e. if i thought of something what would be easier, being able to write it down or being able to MAKE someone simply understand and experience my thought directly? obviously the latter. but i dont think language is insufficient because it isn't direct, i think language has given us new thoughts and idea's we'd maybe never have had if it wasn't for the depth of how it stimulates us in different ways

oh @ Clifford: FUCK THE WHEEL

I guess we'll agree to disagree, because I believe we have a completely different view on what human thoughts are actually like and what they entail.