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magma quite clearly said 'as fashion items'

noam wrote:its a way of behaving and an attitude that you dont lose by swapping trackies for designer gear or by rediscovering 'th' instead of 'ver'.

and would you say that transcends race?

Pistonsbeneath wrote:magma quite clearly said 'as fashion items'

errr i was joking

noam wrote:we call em 'scallies' in manchester cos of the word 'scallywag' and fuck off i live in wythenshawe i know a fuckin scally when i see/hear one

its a way of behaving and an attitude that you dont lose by swapping trackies for designer gear or by rediscovering 'th' instead of 'ver'

i have an inner-scally, but i keep him in check, bless him...

Shaw mandem, Woodhouse park & Benchill soldiers 4 lyfe

magma wrote: The "wigger" stereotype is as much part of the hangover from institutional racism as anything else and it's got nastier roots than people might first assume - it implies that it's ok for blacks to dress/act a certain way, but it's not ok for whites... this can only be because blacks are a lower form of human than whites... they have no choice about being unrefined, unintelligent and violent, but the whites do - so whilst hailing successful urban blacks as if patting a well-behaved child on the head, we castigate whites for the same style of behaviour. Jay-Z and Lil' Wayne are cultural heroes (didn't they do WELL, it's not their fault they carry guns and dealt drugs!), but Skinnyman is chavscum from a sink estate.

The double-standard is a window on the institutional racism we've swept under the carpet for decades.

this reminds me of what david starkey said with the ''white's becoming black'' and his gross oversimplification of black culture boiling down to gangs and violence. (i'm sure most of you have already seen it but it was new to me)

what a turd!

LACE wrote:

magma wrote: The "wigger" stereotype is as much part of the hangover from institutional racism as anything else and it's got nastier roots than people might first assume - it implies that it's ok for blacks to dress/act a certain way, but it's not ok for whites... this can only be because blacks are a lower form of human than whites... they have no choice about being unrefined, unintelligent and violent, but the whites do - so whilst hailing successful urban blacks as if patting a well-behaved child on the head, we castigate whites for the same style of behaviour. Jay-Z and Lil' Wayne are cultural heroes (didn't they do WELL, it's not their fault they carry guns and dealt drugs!), but Skinnyman is chavscum from a sink estate.

The double-standard is a window on the institutional racism we've swept under the carpet for decades.

this reminds me of what david starkey said with the ''white's becoming black'' and his gross oversimplification of black culture boiling down to gangs and violence. (i'm sure most of you have already seen it but it was new to me)

what a turd!

Yessssss.... David Starkey is pretty much the embodiment of what I'm talking about.

LACE and Magma sittin in a tree...

i'm often told of my irresistible charm

See, I've never associated the term "chav" with "wiggers". I've also not quite managed to associate Ali G with being a chav caricature. I don't think chavs are white guys trying to be black. I think they're just...caricutures in and of themselves because they have taken on some aspects of certain cultures that they think are cool/great, and have blown them up into nonsensical proportions.

I think I also view hipsters in a similar way. In that both groups, however disparate, are simply caricatures of the culture/identity/movement they think they are emulating.

As for examples of rich people getting bashed on as much as poor people, I think the attitudes and responses on this forum generally demonstrates that there's no shortage of that.

used to think the same thing when i was 11-14 or so
before that had a few Kiss FM compilations which were starting to head me down the right track but then it went downhill, became some fucking idiot child listening to stuff like Limp Bizkit and Korn when UK Garage was at its peak, wish i could go back in time and slap myself

kay wrote:See, I've never associated the term "chav" with "wiggers". I've also not quite managed to associate Ali G with being a chav caricature. I don't think chavs are white guys trying to be black. I think they're just...caricutures in and of themselves because they have taken on some aspects of certain cultures that they think are cool/great, and have blown them up into nonsensical proportions.

I think I also view hipsters in a similar way. In that both groups, however disparate, are simply caricatures of the culture/identity/movement they think they are emulating.

Allow me to ramble, post-spliff if you will... this might go on tangents.

Everyone has their own personal definition of the words they use - I was pointing more at societal attitudes than the personal ones of people around here who I know are pretty reliably cool deep down. I know none of you lot are implying most of what I'm talking about when you use chav, so I wouldn't call you on it personally. Same as I wouldn't call Nas on using the N-Word - I don't think it's particularly good for society that he does, but I know he doesn't mean it in that way. It's a comment rather than an attack, brothers.

I do think it's a worrying sign for society when large swathes are being branded with negative labels that can be based on nothing but appearance though... and I do think that on a broader level, the Chav/Wigger thing is fairly relevant. You hear "white kids wanting to be black" all over the place and it's very often the social underclasses that are being discussed... we're clearly still very much struggling with the difference between culture and ethnicity. White kids aren't trying to be black, they're just trying to be cool... for the past 25 years, urban cool has been defined by Hip Hop emanating from poor, urban neighbourhoods of America - which, since they're heavily ghettoised meant that the culture appeared to be connected to skin colour*.

As a result, a whole chunk of music, dress, language and, arguably, behaviour became regarded by society-at-large as an ethnicity rather than a culture. Anyone can become part of a culture - only those born into an ethnicity can be part of it. Cultures matter. Ethnicities really shouldn't matter anymore.

It's a big mess and there are too many people involved to even 'discuss' it. I have no idea how anyone goes about solving it... but it's a tough conversation to have with anyone without people from both sides yelling "RACISM!" and retreating for fear of being misunderstood. I'm yet again heartened by the Ninjas allowing me to whitter on like an worn out flowerchild. I love you all unconditionally.



*As to back up the point, dance music in Britain largely emanated from poor urban neighbourhoods as well - ours are generally more mixed-race though, so the 'scary/subversive' parts of that culture weren't tied to an ethnicity, they were tied to a social group that later became known as The Chavs. (See thread title.)

As for examples of rich people getting bashed on as much as poor people, I think the attitudes and responses on this forum generally demonstrates that there's no shortage of that.

Rich/posh people do get some stick, but I don't see them being held back by it or insulted in public like Cliff was... I'm sure there is some unpleasantness, but keeping rich people in the status quo isn't really that much of a problem; keeping the economically, socially and educationally disadvantaged in the status quo by giving them a label that subtly allows it to appear like they deserve it does seem an issue to me.

Thing is though, not all poor white people are labelled as chavs, only a certain subset.

magma wrote: Allow me to ramble, post-spliff if you will... this might go on tangents.

this should be your catchphrase

kay wrote:Thing is though, not all poor white people are labelled as chavs, only a certain subset.

Sure - but it can also be a fairly random selection (Cliff's not a "Chav" by any of our personal definitions, but he still got called one in public) - the only trait all targets have in common is that they're working class and, likely white. People can get labelled Chav at the look of a photograph - no knowledge of behaviour, just physical appearance... it might not suit our personal definitions, but that's what "Chavscum.co.uk" that kickstarted the national usage of the word was - photos of people dressed badly or driving poorly modified cars - The Chavs.

It's since developed a personal meaning for everyone that uses it, but at it's root it's about appearance more than anything else - the appearance implies all the associated negative behaviours. Colleen Rooney is considered a "Chav" despite seemingly being an unfailingly committed wife to a difficult husband and (admittedly, inexplicably) successful 'personality' because of her good nature... but she's from poor white stock, she's got an accent, she wears tracksuits to go to the shop, she's married to a footballer... she's a chav.




*I really didn't start the day thinking I'd be complimenting Colleen Rooney by the evening.

herbalicious wrote:

magma wrote: Allow me to ramble, post-spliff if you will... this might go on tangents.

this should be your catchphrase

Miiiiiiiiiiight sig this.

there was a time on certain online communities when going outside or listening to music that didn't involve floppy hair or guitars made you a chav.

im just a scot who moved to manchester, wtf does that make me im worried now .

It always makes me laugh how they walk and talk. Its all high pitched slurred shouting and over the top ridiculous arm swinging swaggers. They have gotten to a stage around here where Devvo looks less chavvy than the nobs on the streets

herbalicious wrote:

magma wrote: Allow me to ramble, post-spliff if you will... this might go on tangents.

this should be your catchphrase

+1

noam wrote:we call em 'scallies' in manchester cos of the word 'scallywag' and fuck off i live in wythenshawe i know a fuckin scally when i see/hear one

its a way of behaving and an attitude that you dont lose by swapping trackies for designer gear or by rediscovering 'th' instead of 'ver'

i have an inner-scally, but i keep him in check, bless him...

completely 100% this. it's about the attitude, not intelligence or wealth.

edit: or race. when people misuse the word or intend on using it as an insult they are just being ignorant. that isn't endemic of anything other than people being ignorant, which we can all agree we don't like but also that it probably won't go away.. so this is kind of socio-philosophic wishful thinking at its most redundant.
sorry Magma