Dubstepforum.com

This doesnt have to get personal...

He has the right to do that, the men in the crowd have the right to beat his ass as well.
There is such a thing as consequences for poor decisions and personal responsibility.

dubfordessert wrote:

Laszlo wrote:The people talking about 'propaganda' - for shame!

You young people seem to be clueless to the sacrifice given by previous generations. No, of course war isn't the one, but when people have laid down their lives in order to stop the spread of fascism we need to mark that with the respect it deserves.

Like having the option to vote?
Like not speaking German?
Like being able to express yourself in any way you see fit?
Like cultural diversity?
Like not living in fear of the Gestapo running up in your house in the dead of night and taking you away, never to been seen again?

Yeah? Have some respect then!

Being able to express yourself in any way you see fit EXCEPT this way? Except posting a burning poppy on fb? Except except except except.

No, son in the stockings can do what he likes - the people that fought and died in WW2 enabled him to do that. Ironic ay!
I'm not having a pop at him but the whole 'propaganda' thing got me vexed, especially when used by people who aren't even from the UK.

dubfordessert wrote: How about the number of people who speak English now who wouldn't were it not for imperialism, which British soldiers were helping preserve at the same time as they were supposedly "fighting fascism"? Are we celebrating that as well?

'Supposedly "fighting fascism"'?!? What are you on? 'Supposedly'
We are celebrating the memory of those from a different generation whose lives were torn apart for 6 years but they didn't fold. They didn't buckle under the pressure of total war. They didn't give in when their homes and businesses were bombed, when food, petrol and clothing was rationed. A whole country pulled together to defend Europe from unspeakable evil.
You think they were pulling together to protect imperial interests? Come off it. You can't tell me that both of my grandfathers joined up to fight in Europe and the north Atlantic because it was good for the empire.
Yeah the British did some dirt - worldwide - but should we just tar all the people that fought for US with the same brush?

Bun that.

Y'all need to separate what previous governments did and what the civilians of previous generations did.
I really just think this must be a generational thing. It just surprises me how much people can differ on something like this when there's only 10 (if not less) years between us. Genuinely saddens me.

Also, to the people who are saying it was just the working class that went over and fought, sent by the evil upper class - catch yourself on!

slothrop wrote: Although AFAICT that wasn't publicised (by either side?) during WWII itself. People didn't sign up to stop the holocaust, they signed up to defend their own country from the big bad baby-eating aggressors. It makes me a bit uncomfortable that WWII is viewed as this noble crusade to stop the Ultimate Evil when in fact most people involved only found out about the Ultimate Evil pretty near the end...

The UK went to war when Hitler marched into Poland it was an act of aggression the British couldn't ignore after they'd already marched through Sudetenland. It was never about the holocaust but then it wasn't about the holocaust for the Germans fighting either.

Hircine you're right with highlighting the atrocities that the Uk's been responsible for but I'm still not convinced there's anything equivalent. This isn't to demonise Germany or Germans I just think the scale is overwhelming. That said the majority of those that fight in wars and die in wars have very little invested in the wars.

Hircine wrote: My point is:
There's nothing good about war or militar imposition,

No one said there was........................... /facepalm.

Hircine wrote: Hitler was a monster but so was every European country, every middle eastern rebel, every SS soldier and so on.

So every person in Europe was a monster? That's what you've said effectively. I suppose Brazil has no stain on it's conscience (L O L)
Anywho, again, your starting an argument that isn't actually there because no one is denying any of this.

Hircine wrote: It should not be celebrated,

It's not being celebrated you idiot it's being commemorated. We have respect for our dead, it's just basic human compassion.

Hircine wrote: it achieved nothing but bad things.

No one said 'War is good!!'.....

I'm quite glad I'm not living in a dictatorship though.

Hircine wrote:I'm sorry for everyone who had to die,

No your not. Not if they were / are European. You have a chip on your shoulder.

Hircine wrote: but it doesn't make them innocent.

Well a lot of the soldiers who died were innocent. Just like the colonialism you are talking about.. not everyone in Britain was involved. My family wasn't because I've traced them back pretty far and I never had family who served in the colonies. Should I still feel guilt for colonialism that was used when I wasn't even born? Fuck off.

Pretty weird that you bother to pipe up on a thread that's about our issues anyway considering your in South America. Perhaps I should start getting livid about some of the stuff that's happening in Brazil.

Perej wrote:

hutyluty wrote:
What's also a bit scary is the way its almost beyond reproach in the country, I mean if I went and told someone down the street I didn't agree with Remembrance day I'd probably get beaten up.

You are a moron.

Yeah, that's crazy talk. Look at how everyone in this thread is welcoming robust discussion on the subject in a calm and rational fashion.

dfaultuzr wrote: and @Terpit: i guess all i'm trying to say is german soldiers enlisted for the same reason english soldiers did: patriotism

Well there's a blanket statement if ever I saw one.

Hircine wrote:And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

Most cretinous post so far.

slothrop wrote:

Perej wrote:

hutyluty wrote:
What's also a bit scary is the way its almost beyond reproach in the country, I mean if I went and told someone down the street I didn't agree with Remembrance day I'd probably get beaten up.

You are a moron.

Yeah, that's crazy talk. Look at how everyone in this thread is welcoming robust discussion on the subject in a calm and rational fashion.

Innit. Bunch of fucking children, name calling and shit... If you dont agree, say that. Dont give it the fucking biggun.

slothrop wrote:

Perej wrote:

hutyluty wrote:
What's also a bit scary is the way its almost beyond reproach in the country, I mean if I went and told someone down the street I didn't agree with Remembrance day I'd probably get beaten up.

You are a moron.

Yeah, that's crazy talk. Look at how everyone in this thread is welcoming robust discussion on the subject in a calm and rational fashion.

I was referring to his previous posts in the topic, I should have been more clear on that. I stand by what I've said though. Calling him a moron is being just as much of a child as he is being by pretending he is so anti-establishment

Also, people who aren't even English piping up on here have a lot of nerve especially when it wasn't your family that died fighting, get back in your boxes.

Perej wrote:Also, people who aren't even English piping up on here have a lot of nerve especially when it wasn't your family that died fighting, get back in your boxes.

Yeah, this is a Brits only thread! WTF, get out of here you non Britishers.

Perej wrote:Also, people who aren't even English piping up on here have a lot of nerve especially when it wasn't your family that died fighting, get back in your boxes.

Im Scottish, do i qualify?

Laszlo wrote:

dubfordessert wrote:

Laszlo wrote:The people talking about 'propaganda' - for shame!

You young people seem to be clueless to the sacrifice given by previous generations. No, of course war isn't the one, but when people have laid down their lives in order to stop the spread of fascism we need to mark that with the respect it deserves.

Like having the option to vote?
Like not speaking German?
Like being able to express yourself in any way you see fit?
Like cultural diversity?
Like not living in fear of the Gestapo running up in your house in the dead of night and taking you away, never to been seen again?

Yeah? Have some respect then!

Being able to express yourself in any way you see fit EXCEPT this way? Except posting a burning poppy on fb? Except except except except.

No, son in the stockings can do what he likes - the people that fought and died in WW2 enabled him to do that. Ironic ay!
I'm not having a pop at him but the whole 'propaganda' thing got me vexed, especially when used by people who aren't even from the UK.

Apparently he can't do what he likes because he's just been fucking arrested.

'Supposedly "fighting fascism"'?!? What are you on? 'Supposedly'

Seems like they were selectively fighting fascism to me. Indeed the governments of the time didn't bother fighting fascism in Spain because they were more afraid of communism. And the governments of the time were also engaged in oppression of people elsewhere. You know, imperialism? The British Empire? Remember that? It really isn't black and white. That is my point. The British forces were not solely engaged in defending the innocent from the evil. They engaged in some evil of their own. They weren't just "defending freedom"

We are celebrating the memory of those from a different generation whose lives were torn apart for 6 years but they didn't fold. They didn't buckle under the pressure of total war. They didn't give in when their homes and businesses were bombed, when food, petrol and clothing was rationed. A whole country pulled together to defend Europe from unspeakable evil.

Sorry this is just rhetoric. People in total war don't have a choice.

You think they were pulling together to protect imperial interests? Come off it. You can't tell me that both of my grandfathers joined up to fight in Europe and the north Atlantic because it was good for the empire.

No, I'm telling you that the British army and the British state as a whole, which is propped up by these political demonstrations and the ideology they support, have done so.

Yeah the British did some dirt - worldwide - but should we just tar all the people that fought for US with the same brush?

Bun that.

Ok, firstly, if we're going to engage in the sort of ridiculous rhetorical posturing that you've just engaged in when talking about fighting fascism, summing up the cumulative crimes of British imperialism as "doing some dirt" is pretty offensive.

And the second point is this. If it is wrong to "tar everyone who fought with the same brush" (which I am not doing, at all), why is it ok to whitewash, and subsume the good examples that you've provided under an umbrella that celebrates the entire edifice, good and bad?

Y'all need to separate what previous governments did and what the civilians of previous generations did.
I really just think this must be a generational thing. It just surprises me how much people can differ on something like this when there's only 10 (if not less) years between us. Genuinely saddens me.

Also, to the people who are saying it was just the working class that went over and fought, sent by the evil upper class - catch yourself on!

It's not a generational thing.

wubstep wrote:This guy dressed like that every day, that's his go-to outfit. Was actually skating 'with' him on Friday, in the sense that he turned up and rode around like he does, trying wack flatground bonelesses and weak shit.

Never seen his face, bet he's gutted, if he tries wear his freaky gear any more he'll be battered at every corner he goes around.

Is this true? If it is, then youre all overlooking the fact it might not be a "protest" but in fact a stupid person acting stupid.

Terpit wrote:

Perej wrote:Also, people who aren't even English piping up on here have a lot of nerve especially when it wasn't your family that died fighting, get back in your boxes.

Yeah, this is a Brits only thread! WTF, get out of here you non Britishers.

Funny how it's so easy to point fingers and justify war when you ignore your own crimes. Colonialism and wars gave you this comfortable life you have now. Pay some respect and be glad that you don't have to live in all those countries you parasitated on. And I'm far from having a "clean past", Brazil and Argentina, funded by Britain, murdered the most part of Paraguay's male population just because they were becoming a threat to the Empire, that's a fact. I don't take any pride on that and I don't think I should honour the leaders or the generations that did it, they achieved nothing. War is a crime and those celebrations are only propaganda to justify it.

I'm out, going to college and face some real problems. And I won't ever bother replying to your offense, you are blinded by patriotic propaganda and you can say the same about me I guess, this argument won't take us nowhere and won't prove nothing, just like wars.

the point for me is not about individuals who fought. It's about the ideology of militarism and nationalism and its negative consequences. The discourse surrounding remembrance sunday has FAR too much of it now and not enough fucking contrition over the people who propagated it and the suffering they are responsible for. That's all.

'it's not abiut individuals who fought'
It is for me.

You seem really angryn about this whole thing, Im finding it hard to understand.

Perej wrote:Also, people who aren't even English piping up on here have a lot of nerve especially when it wasn't your family that died fighting, get back in your boxes.

Yep, no other country has its own respective version of 'rememberance day'. People aren't discussing the day, they're discussing the idea. The British remembrance day is incidental

slothrop wrote:

mIrReN wrote: It really is not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiWL2BCfhGg

Go there, and try saying that again. I know for a fact you will keep quiet just like everybody else.

The fact that a lot of people believe propoganda doesn't make it not propoganda.

Are you saying the last post in Ypres is propaganda?

Oh pls just fuck off and stop being ignorant if that's the case.
edit misread smth

Terpit wrote:'it's not abiut individuals who fought'
It is for me.

You seem really angryn about this whole thing, Im finding it hard to understand.

i don't think i'm angrier than anyone else here, but i feel really strongly about, in particular, world war I and the people who died in it

i think it should be about individuals who suffered, but that the way it is discussed and "celebrated" and co-opted means that it isn't, and that it actually ends up celebrating the very thing that caused the deaths of the people it is supposed to remember.