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So lets say I really like 10 Dubstep tunes its not going to make me spend £200 on a turntable, 50quid on a cartridge n needle, plus another few hundred on a decent soundsystem just so I can own those few songs.

You can get a decent turntable for less than the cost of an Ipod bruv.

vinyl, by default creates its own legacy which can be passed onwards. what legacy do you have with a 80gb harddrive? at the end of the day its not the format thats the issue, its the issue of quality control and the end result.

Amen to that.

[quote="seckle"][quote="steshine"][quote="dj ld"]The cost of buying vinyl has always acted as a quality control for me, I cant afford to buy every release that I like,so have to be selective. Over time this means you build up a nice collection. The trouble is these days people want to have every record ,not just the ones they really want - which is why they think that they cant afford vinyl. As someone said earlier CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME.[/quote]

WORD!
People always are like, "i've got 100gb of music", but at the end of the day, so what!?
Having the cost makes you appreciate great tunes more and your record collection can b unique, rather than having an i-pod identical to the next "dubstep fan".
Having limitations on media production is a great idea and it should never change.
Fuck digital, buy the record, and if you want it on your i-pod, record it and put it on there yourself.[/quote]

this is the thing.

when you pay nearly £1000 pounds to have something mastered and laquered, you're treating that creative effort with that much more scrutiny and precision.

you could have all the mastering plugins in the world, and be really good at mixdowns, but the process of having tunes run through another set of equipment and ears, means that the results are nearly perfect or as good as they could possibly be.

people seem to forget that this is a scene built on the power of the sound...the precision in the subbass. if you listen to early horsepower or even loefah,mala or any of the big apple releases, they're at such a high standard in production that no one could ignore it. this scene and the early jungle scene (93-97) before it, strated around the culture of the cutting house....meaning....everyone would cut dubs at the same two or three places. this is why the early metalheadz and the rest of those pioneering labels made such a huge impact. cutting houses, before the days of myspace and blogs, were the only way that one producer could hear what other producers were doing...before the tunes hit the club. this created a competitive sound culture, where you tried to stay competitive with other producers and other sounds. everyone pushing each other....

jamaica in the 60's and 70's had the same cutting house culture, where one cutting house would try to outdo the next one...for sound power. read up on tubby or coxsone or any of those production houses and you can see why they've become legendary.

vinyl, by default creates its own legacy which can be passed onwards. what legacy do you have with a 80gb harddrive? at the end of the day its not the format thats the issue, its the issue of quality control and the end result.[/quote]

THIS!

I tend to find that labels which respect vinyl also respect the culture which is important for me.

I moved away from DnB because the digital harshness started to grate on my ears. The bass went and so did the warmth.

Dubstep took over and brought back a certain style of producing I love hearing out in the clubs. When DMZ spin you know something is up just by the sound.

The Dub masters in the UK still spin vinyl and you can see they put in the hard work and passion. Building your own rig and carting it around takes dedication and I worry about music is just becoming throw away.

I don't deny you can do exciting things with the Digital format but so far all I have heard a lot of badly produced music (not all) by DJs who are using it as a substitute for vinyl. It seems anyone can make a tune, burn it to CD and play it out. That should be a good thing in theory but it rarely works because the quality control goes down the pan.

In my view it is part of the reason why DnB started sounding rubbish and lost all its original elements. Where is the Bass and Drums these days?

Dubstep to me is about big deep basslines and warmth which digital formats do not supply.

Furthermore I don't understand why laptops and CDs sound so much lower in volume.

I thought we were supposed to be bass loving ravers who appreciate proper soundsystems and sound.

Next you will be telling me you can play Dubstep down the local meat market because the soundsystem means nothing.

Preserve the good aspects of the music!

Jazz

messsingh wrote: I thought we were supposed to be bass loving ravers who appreciate proper soundsystems and sound.

Next you will be telling me you can play Dubstep down the local meat market because the soundsystem means nothing.
Jazz

exactly bro! people don't learn from the past, and learn from what happened to jungle.
faster and faster is not always better and better. in fact faster and faster makes you complacent.

da vinci said it best 500 years ago: "Where the spirit does not work with the hand there is no art."

Horza wrote:

steshine wrote:

dj ld wrote:The cost of buying vinyl has always acted as a quality control for me, I cant afford to buy every release that I like,so have to be selective. Over time this means you build up a nice collection. The trouble is these days people want to have every record ,not just the ones they really want - which is why they think that they cant afford vinyl. As someone said earlier CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME.

WORD!
People always are like, "i've got 100gb of music", but at the end of the day, so what!?
Having the cost makes you appreciate great tunes more and your record collection can b unique, rather than having an i-pod identical to the next "dubstep fan".
Having limitations on media production is a great idea and it should never change.
Fuck digital, buy the record, and if you want it on your i-pod, record it and put it on there yourself.

So lets say I really like 10 Dubstep tunes its not going to make me spend £200 on a turntable, 50quid on a cartridge n needle, plus another few hundred on a decent soundsystem just so I can own those few songs.

So as someone else said... no, fuck you

that's backwards logic, personally if i had no decks and i just wanted a few tunes that were only available on vinyl i'd go and download the rips
also consume consume consume is what funds labels and artists
music is subjective to the listener which is why it's pointless to get all anal about it since there is a market for literally everything since everyone has different tastes
seems like the labels releasing only vinyl are clutching to the past and losing out on making extra profit

there is always going to be multiple people who end up with your product

1.) those who will always get it illegally
2.) those who care about the format and buy vinyl regardless
3.) those who purchase based on convenience regardless of format
4.) those who download illegally due to non-availability of desired format

it seems to me some people are missing out on the business element of music and getting too passionate about the art part

people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

seckle wrote:people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

the format has nothing to do with that though

seckle wrote:people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

erm. what?

I just wanted to add as well that if you release vinyl and digital then the chances are that your digital release will have been through the same mastering equipment because you have paid the engineer and wouldn't want to waste the mastered audio files that they supply, so there shouldn't be any loss in quality, although obviously the vinyl may be a bit warmer.

But also if you're a serious label that has decided that vinyl is not a viable format for you, then you would still get your tracks professionally mastered also.

I personally won't stop releasing vinyl because I love it, but I understand the labels that have decided its not the primary format for them. The only issue for me is that its too easy to throw up MP3's of substandard material from producers who can't get releases on vinyl labels, so the market gets saturated, but unfortunately thats how a market works and its up to the consumer to be discerning.

Temper D wrote:I just wanted to add as well that if you release vinyl and digital then the chances are that your digital release will have been through the same mastering equipment because you have paid the engineer and wouldn't want to waste the mastered audio files that they supply, so there shouldn't be any loss in quality, although obviously the vinyl may be a bit warmer.

But also if you're a serious label that has decided that vinyl is not a viable format for you, then you would still get your tracks professionally mastered also.

I personally won't stop releasing vinyl because I love it, but I understand the labels that have decided its not the primary format for them. The only issue for me is that its too easy to throw up MP3's of substandard material from producers who can't get releases on vinyl labels, so the market gets saturated, but unfortunately thats how a market works and its up to the consumer to be discerning.

dead on man

Deadly Habit wrote:

seckle wrote:people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

the format has nothing to do with that though

sure it does.

with digital, you can mixdown something tonight on your rig, play it out tonight at a club and by the next day, upload it for sale to a digital store. you wouldn't even need to let anyone else hear it first. no one else would be able to give you input on it from a production angle. its all you, your ears and your equipment. it gives you many options, which also makes it precarious because it means that maybe no one will like it, or would pay for a download.

with vinyl, you have to mixdown, get it mastered or maybe cut to a dub to test it out at a club. most people going into vinyl do take the time to test it out for a few months first, and get feedback from other dj's, watch what it does at clubs, and generally study and live with the tune a bit. with vinyl you have the same options as digital, but you have a calculated risk, that you can gamble on, because the money involved warrants your commitment to the tune.

as i said, digital culture is amazing, and yes, format isn't the issue, but the quality control aspects are very very different. if you look at the early releases in this scene, the quality of production is superb. vinyl production was a large part of that success.

seckle wrote:

Deadly Habit wrote:

seckle wrote:people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

the format has nothing to do with that though

sure it does.

with digital, you can mixdown something tonight on your rig, play it out tonight at a club and by the next day, upload it for sale to a digital store. you wouldn't even need to let anyone else hear it first. no one else would be able to give you input on it from a production angle. its all you, your ears and your equipment. it gives you many options, which also makes it precarious because it means that maybe no one will like it, or would pay for a download.

with vinyl, you have to mixdown, get it mastered or maybe cut to a dub to test it out at a club. most people going into vinyl do take the time to test it out for a few months first, and get feedback from other dj's, watch what it does at clubs, and generally study and live with the tune a bit. with vinyl you have the same options as digital, but you have a calculated risk, that you can gamble on, because the money involved warrants your commitment to the tune.

as i said, digital culture is amazing, and yes, format isn't the issue, but the quality control aspects are very very different.

i will agree that there are plenty of digital only labels who do that, but any label worth it's reputation goes through the same amount of quality control and mastering as its vinyl counterparts. There is no excuse in releasing a substandard product and i think most consumers will realize this which is where we get to the point of shelf life and the ilk.
i mean generally speaking with dance music alot that gets released on vinyl or digital has only a short shelf life because it doesn't really stand out from the crowd, but that all rests on the people who listen and dj to decide really.

Temper D wrote:then you would still get your tracks professionally mastered also. .

let's hope people listen to that advice, because there's some producers out there that need to hear it. some of the shit i've heard via serato at clubs is horribly mixed down, and you can see the dj having to go +7 or even +10 on the eq knobs to try and make it sound even remotely near normal vinyl.

Temper D wrote:I just wanted to add as well that if you release vinyl and digital then the chances are that your digital release will have been through the same mastering equipment because you have paid the engineer and wouldn't want to waste the mastered audio files that they supply, so there shouldn't be any loss in quality, although obviously the vinyl may be a bit warmer.

But also if you're a serious label that has decided that vinyl is not a viable format for you, then you would still get your tracks professionally mastered also.

I personally won't stop releasing vinyl because I love it, but I understand the labels that have decided its not the primary format for them. The only issue for me is that its too easy to throw up MP3's of substandard material from producers who can't get releases on vinyl labels, so the market gets saturated, but unfortunately thats how a market works and its up to the consumer to be discerning.

You are right it is easy to through up some garbage just so you can make your beatport quota (that is why I don't use beatport) but that will come back to bight you in the ass. Quality control is every bit as important to me in releasing digital. I mean with digi the tunes are always available! People will be able to see what shite you put out 2 years ago if they want. At least with vinyl you can kinda put it behind you once the vinyl is all sold.

As far as the "legacy" of vinyl goes. That shit is irrelevant in the day of P&D that we live in. It really doesn't take anymore effort, possibly even less effort to put out vinyl than digital. And not only that but the taste makers in vinyl are essentially a handful of distro employees and quite frankly they miss the boat a lot. I find just as much quality digital only tracks out there as vinyl only tracks. Just because tune comes out on vinyl doesn't make it good and just because it doesn't come out on vinyl doesn't mean it's shite!

Coming from a label owners standpoint I can barely take these threads anymore. I almost take the posts personally that piss on digital only labels. Fuck you, if you only knew how hard I work and how hard the artists I am putting out work.

abZ wrote:Coming from a label owners standpoint I can barely take these threads anymore. I almost take the posts personally that piss on digital only labels. Fuck you, if you only knew how hard I work and how hard the artists I am putting out work.

I appreciate all you label guys vinyl / digital you feed my music addiction .. I come back to the digital music just as much as my vinyl..

by the middle of 2004, road,boka,DMZ,planet mu and a whole lot of other labels were selling mp3's on bleep.com

bleep was the first online store to really push this sound. this scene has been very pro-digital for years now, so don't get upset by people asking or being critical about more quality control. i'll never stop talking about quality control, because its an uphill battle in the last few years in regards to well produced product versus absolutely shit product in the stores taking the piss on everyone and watering the scene down as well.

just because you can make money quicker in one format doesn't mean that it would be equally wrong for the next man to have totally different priorities.

if you look at one of the bigger digi stores, and start listening to tunes, and page after page of tune clips is just mediocre to even more mediocre in terms of production quality, what does that say about a scene? what does that say to someone buying their first digi dubstep tune? would it make them say either......hmm this all sounds the same, or hmm dubstep is about mid range sub and boring basslines? i''m not sure what they'd say, but more quality control, can never be a problem.

Deadly Habit wrote:

seckle wrote:people need to ask themselves this in 2009...
do you want to make disposable music thats forgotten about in 6 months, or do you want to make music thats talked about in 15 years?

the format has nothing to do with that though

You're just 1 hard drive crash away from losing your entire life collection of digital tunes. Sure you can just go and download them again, but it won't be THAT COPY.

It's like your favorite shirt, or whatever... my dog has a favorite ball that is all mangled and shit, and we can get him the same brand ball, same color, fucking mangle the shit out of it and he would still know the difference between that ball and his favorite ball. I have vinyl that you couldn't replace the memory of going to the shop and buying it, or a friend passing it to me, etc... you can't simulate that feeling of holding something in your hand and truly feeling like "this is for me"

It doesn't have to be an exclusive tune, but for that one piece of vinyl at least, it's exclusive. Nobody can duplicate that exact crackle, etc. It can't be done. Now I'm not saying it's better or worse than digital, though I clearly think it's better... what I am saying, is that it's a completely unique and completely subjective feeling.

It's cheaper to buy digital, lighter on the back, you can carry more, blah blah blah... I still buy vinyl at the end of the day. Nothing you can tell me or show me will change that. So what is the point of these threads? More or less, it's just a chance to be controversial and stir up shit when these threads are posted.

"Digital is the best"

Yes, yes it is... for you. Not everyone.

And to ABZ's point about exclusively digital/vinyl releases, he's right. It goes both ways, obviously. There are tunes I'd give my right nut to own on vinyl that I have already purchased on digital. For me it's more collecting than feeling elite because of it or some shit. Urban Scrumping is a great example of a digital only(thus far) label than is making some serious tunes. And I'd buy them on vinyl in a heartbeat, even after buying them digitally.. even after getting them free from Phaeleh

It's all about supporting the music you like. Even if you don't have tables. I used to have no decks and bought vinyl all the time and would have to wait to play it at a friends house who had decks. Didn't stop me from buying vinyl.

seckle wrote:by the middle of 2004, road,boka,DMZ,planet mu and a whole lot of other labels were selling mp3's on bleep.com

bleep was the first online store to really push this sound. this scene has been very pro-digital for years now, so don't get upset by people asking or being critical about more quality control. i'll never stop talking about quality control, because its an uphill battle in the last few years in regards to well produced product versus absolutely shit product in the stores taking the piss on everyone and watering the scene down as well.

just because you can make money quicker in one format doesn't mean that it would be equally wrong for the next man to have totally different priorities.

if you look at one of the bigger digi stores, and start listening to tunes, and page after page of tune clips is just mediocre to even more mediocre in terms of production quality, what does that say about a scene? what does that say to someone buying their first digi dubstep tune? would it make them say either......hmm this all sounds the same, or hmm dubstep is about mid range sub and boring basslines? i''m not sure what they'd say, but more quality control, can never be a problem.

Some of the same labels that created this scene are putting out the worst tunes nowadays though. Being around in 2005 doesn't prevent owestcommondenominatorstep from rising to the top of certain labels and their release schedules. Plenty of bullshit tunes get released on vinyl every day

I buy both, but really, for some reason owning a song on vinyl instead of on a cd is like owning a real picasso vs a digital copy of it.

yohan1234 wrote:I buy both, but really, for some reason owning a song on vinyl instead of on a cd is like owning a real picasso vs a digital copy of it.

That's another very good point. I love the art that comes with the vinyl. That right there is a classic example of why I collect vinyl. I want the art the way the artist wanted it presented to me. I want to see what it is they have to offer as far as creativity and vision are concerned. For some people, music is more than just wallpaper for our partying. There's usually music or TV playing while I sleep. I can't live in silence it'd weird me out.

It's my hobby and my life, and preserving these moments in my life on those little discs of wax is something I rather fancy. And if you have decent needles and a 1210, with a good mixer and a decent outboard processor, you can get a good vinyl rip. Shit they make turntables to rip your vinyl straight to mp3 for insanely cheap, just connect a USB/firewire cable to your computer.

So yeah, picked up a ST record the other month. Big white canvas with a font that you can get from Dafont.com for free.

Soo good.





Jokesh. xxx