Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:40 pm
by e-motion
hookey wrote:So you have this dnb tune peaking at -6db so the engineer has a decent amount of headroom to push it to 0 the right way. The question is: How do you get the most of those -6db? I mean, there are tunes by big name producers that sound louder in the intro when it's not yet peaking at 0, more like at -3db (the classic dnb intros with the drums and some effects in the background before the actual mid-sub action starts) that are sounding louder than your tunes at the most bussiest 0db moments. How do they do this? I guarantee all the non-needed frequencies are low/high passed. I high pass the sub at 30hz (btw, it's ok to just put a 30hz high pass in the master so you guarantee there are not frequencies under 30hz instead of adding an EQ on every channel wasting CPU resources?) I low pass everything beyond 22hz (same, is it ok doing this on the master channel?) then I individually threat my reecee/bassline it individually on 3 parts (low-subs 30 to 140hz, mid 140 to 5000hz, high 5000 to 9000hz) are those ranges making sense? I tend to cut at 9000hz because the high frequencies from the reeces start clashing with the hi-hats and cymbals which start at around those frequencies (8000 to 15000hz), is this ok? It's one of my big questions aswell: How do they manage to get those reeces/growls/whatever sounding bright at the same time leaving space for the hi hats for that nice crispy touch? I always tend to think "this reece is lacking top end..." and I end up cranking it too much beyond 9000hz and it starts mudding the hi-hats and top end percusison sounds. I can't seem to find a balance there. I high pass my kicks at around 80 hz, snares at around 120hz, and EQ wise don't do much more really. I used to over do EQ'ing by putting notches on everything and I endeed up with a thing sound with no midrange. So to not extend this a lot more: -What are some strategies to get your shit sounding phat maintaing a -6db overall peak? (I end up putting a limiter on everything to control the peaks, so im sure it's not peaking beyond I don't want to, and try to get as much sense of loudness within that range, but I usually end up over-using those "enhancer" features like on the Sony Limiter one. Is this ok?) -How do you go about having a reesee/growl/whatever sounding full and without being forced to cut the higher frequencies too much so it doesn't collapse with your hi-hats stuff?
Highpass the master channel: Almost every channel you have WILL need an highpass filter, so you won't save that much, you may even be wasting.
Loudness: You should ignore loudness. If you want to do an A/B comparison, lower the volume of the mastered tune until it SOUNDS (ignore the meters) as loud as yours, then you can compare. What gets the loudness up is the mastering, but first you should worry in getting a perfect mix (without any plugin on the master). Let it peak at arround 6db. When the mix is perfect, you can try mastering yourself.
Resses and High hats: Does it lack higher frequencys in solo or in the whole mix? With or without high hats? If you want to keep the high frequencies with the high hats, you have a couple of tricks:
1) Sidechain EQ: Google or youtube it. Put the EQ in the reese channel in a way it gets lowpassed (or turns a notch on, or lowers some parametric EQ) when the hats hit (so Reese gets EQd when triggered by the hats).
2) Notch: Put a small notch in the fundamental frequency of the hats (should be one of the loudest, try a spectrum analyser). With you ear, adjust the width of the notch till you don't hear clash (or you hear both well).
3) Automate EQ: Does the same as 1, but manually.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:28 am
by drift
this threads got some serious weight, props to all that have contributed
page 1 & 2 say it all really, though there's gold throughout so its worth reading to find them nuggets. questions are often repeated though the responses are explained in a new way but with the same point, so fair play to people for their patients in answering them & dropping knowledge. the food analogies are cool too as they help a lot in visualising whats being said here.
@macc - have you heard the recording of freddie hubbards " return of the prodigal son" from his backlash LP 1967 ?
when ive played that out it, it sounds like a d&b tune when it drops.... same as lee morgans - sidewinder i guess, both good examples to play someone when using your jazz band analogy. kind of blue is dope no question, but these recordings show you can still have power without smashing the shit out of everything with compressors and mixing in the opposite manner this thread suggests...
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:32 pm
by hookey
Okay, a question (mainly for our boy macc, but everyone can reply).
Let's take this for an example of a really well done "hot mix":
There's some headroom at the start, but the kick is already getting smashed to 0db hard. Once this drops the signal is practically all red all the time, yet it sounds clear and not "fighting for air". What is some advice to get this kind of mix going?
And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:21 pm
by render
hookey wrote:Okay, a question (mainly for our boy macc, but everyone can reply).
Let's take this for an example of a really well done "hot mix":
There's some headroom at the start, but the kick is already getting smashed to 0db hard. Once this drops the signal is practically all red all the time, yet it sounds clear and not "fighting for air". What is some advice to get this kind of mix going?
And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
this
and Y NO sticky this thread anymoar?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:10 pm
by laurend
hookey wrote:And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
There is no mean to know what it was before mastering. What is certain is that a single limiter can't achieve this punchy high level. It also involves some clipping.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:13 am
by travis_baker
render wrote:
hookey wrote:Okay, a question (mainly for our boy macc, but everyone can reply).
Let's take this for an example of a really well done "hot mix":
There's some headroom at the start, but the kick is already getting smashed to 0db hard. Once this drops the signal is practically all red all the time, yet it sounds clear and not "fighting for air". What is some advice to get this kind of mix going?
And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
this
and Y NO sticky this thread anymoar?
yeah its worth way more than fucking how to sound like skrillflex
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:21 am
by chaotix
seriously drums are supposed to hit around -7db?! holy crap, mine always chime in around -6 and yes I am always fighting with synths and especially bases to not peak that master! My question is this...even at -6 everything sounds way to low...i couldn't even imagine -7db. Can you really raise all the volume that much in the end?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:40 am
by Electric_Head
chaotix wrote:seriously drums are supposed to hit around -7db?! holy crap, mine always chime in around -6 and yes I am always fighting with synths and especially bases to not peak that master! My question is this...even at -6 everything sounds way to low...i couldn't even imagine -7db. Can you really raise all the volume that much in the end?
yes
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 am
by didi
chaotix wrote:seriously drums are supposed to hit around -7db?! holy crap, mine always chime in around -6 and yes I am always fighting with synths and especially bases to not peak that master! My question is this...even at -6 everything sounds way to low...i couldn't even imagine -7db. Can you really raise all the volume that much in the end?
Turn up your speakers.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:26 am
by chaotix
yeah i guess i got to get used to that. I've been in the mind state all along, that i'm trying to mix everything to optimal volume my final product would be at. how exactly do you bring the over all volume up on everything without raising the db though? and without using much compression?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:50 am
by Cubicle
chaotix wrote:yeah i guess i got to get used to that. I've been in the mind state all along, that i'm trying to mix everything to optimal volume my final product would be at. how exactly do you bring the over all volume up on everything without raising the db though? and without using much compression?
Compressor and give some gain on the master. Don't overdo it tho.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:58 am
by nowaysj
If my final mix comes in peaking at around -6db, I can just slap a limiter on the master and give it like an 11db gain boost, 6db to get it to 0, and about 5db's of limiting... just to check, or to throw something up on soundcloud.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:39 am
by laurend
I hope you have a good limiter.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:14 am
by macc
hookey wrote:Okay, a question (mainly for our boy macc, but everyone can reply).
Let's take this for an example of a really well done "hot mix":
There's some headroom at the start, but the kick is already getting smashed to 0db hard. Once this drops the signal is practically all red all the time, yet it sounds clear and not "fighting for air". What is some advice to get this kind of mix going?
And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
Only just checked in here - been mad hectic! Love the slightly derisory air to your post man, nice one. You seem to have singularly missed the point though; mixing for loud is not the same as mixing loud. It's not unbelievable in the slightest - quite the opposite.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:17 am
by macc
drift wrote:@macc - have you heard the recording of freddie hubbards " return of the prodigal son" from his backlash LP 1967 ?
Now on my list. Love Hubbard's playing in that time. Can't believe I don't own it, but that will be sorted soon!!
P.S. on the Sidewinder - most remarkable thing about that is that Andrew Hill wrote it, I mean.... WTF.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:49 pm
by drift
macc wrote:
P.S. on the Sidewinder - most remarkable thing about that is that Andrew Hill wrote it, I mean.... WTF.
i knew andrew hill wrote lee morgans rumproller but not the sidewinder too...!
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:55 pm
by hookey
macc wrote:
hookey wrote:Okay, a question (mainly for our boy macc, but everyone can reply).
Let's take this for an example of a really well done "hot mix":
There's some headroom at the start, but the kick is already getting smashed to 0db hard. Once this drops the signal is practically all red all the time, yet it sounds clear and not "fighting for air". What is some advice to get this kind of mix going?
And given your experience at recieving and mastering so many tracks, how do you think this track was sounding prior mastering? Where do you think it was peaking, headroom etc.. kinda unveliable this was ever remotely quiet sounding
Only just checked in here - been mad hectic! Love the slightly derisory air to your post man, nice one. You seem to have singularly missed the point though; mixing for loud is not the same as mixing loud. It's not unbelievable in the slightest - quite the opposite.
Yeah I got the point of mixing in a way that you are getting your mix ready so the mastering enginer can make it loud. I just wanted some comments on that particular track from the point of view of a profesional mastering enginer that's used to work with a lot of tunes (specially dub/dnb).
I did read Phace saying at an interview that he tries to never touch the master channel in terms of loudness/dynamics and work with limiters/compressor individually per track. I find this interesting because if that was the case he must not be leaving any headroom for the mastering engineers. It would be great to hear/know someone who mastered some of those amazing Neosignal tunes from a didactic point of view.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:45 pm
by musicandme
I'm trying to improve the gain staging in all of my tracks and have read and re-read this thread a couple times, but I keep encountering the same problem. I've read that it is best to set kicks to around ~12db and then bring everything lower than that in levels of importance. However, when doing this my tracks still exceed the 0db ceiling. So instead I'll set my kicks to -20db and work from there, which brings me closer to my desired ceiling of -6db. I know that the numbers are just guidelines, but I'm curious as to why I'm having to set my tracks so much lower..
(Using ableton suite fwiw)
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:09 am
by nowaysj
Probably because you are using a lot of elements in your track. The more stuff that is happening at the same time, the quieter everything needs to be. I too start quite low like that, but I kind of build layer cakes, so things tend to get stacked on top of each other. Back not too long ago, I'd have such a bitch of a time getting everything to fit below the ceiling, and now, HONESTLY, it is not even a concern. I still have to pay attention to dynamics, but not because I'm pressed against the ceiling.
If you feel like your tracks don't have enough apparent loudness, along with all of the other mix techniques that are open to you, see if you can simplify the elements within your track.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:06 am
by macc
Hello all, sorry, been buried under work....
hookey wrote:
I did read Phace saying at an interview that he tries to never touch the master channel in terms of loudness/dynamics and work with limiters/compressor individually per track. I find this interesting because if that was the case he must not be leaving any headroom for the mastering engineers.
Why? It's easier to leave headroom if you have individually tailored dynamic control over every part of the track. It's one thing I've been harping on about in this thread, it's essential mix practice, really.
This is exactly the thing musicandme is struggling with, too. The reason he needs to keep bring things down is because he doesn't have control over the dynamics of individual things. Peaks aren't under control, and when you have several things occurring at once, you're likely to get, well, even bigger peaks. It all goes back to the 'maximum impact, minimum voltage' concept discussed in this thread several times. Control each thing correctly and you'll have beef and fatness with however much headroom you want - and no need to squash the master channel.
(Sorry for talking about you in the third person, musicandme! )
)