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garethom wrote:

Forum wrote:

magma wrote:
More Facts and Logic for cloth-eared isolationists to ignore.

Decus et tutamen

What's he got to do with it?

At the centre of every pyramid scheme is a rich foreigner.

Thems some real big ears he got there

@magma & other british people, do you think UKIP is something of a "copycat movement" of the tea party or at least gets some of their momentum and ignorance from them?

it just seems like the gap between british politics and american politics might be closing due to globalization. we've always imagined that british people would never even worry about shit like immigrants stealing "benefits," but UKIP sounds pretty much identical to the tea party on social/welfare issues, except they don't seem as animated about the debt.

in other words, is the uk/england, culturally and politically, moving away from europe and closer to america, mainly because we speak the same language so the process of globalization and convergence is faster?

Nah

the recent rise of far right nationalist groups is a phenomenon all across Europe. UKIP in the UK, Front National in France, FPÖ in Austria, Golden Dawn in Greece, etc. it's all a reaction the economic crisis of ~08. America was the epicenter, so it makes sense that the Tea Party developed first (also accelerated in part due to there being a black president)

you can see the same sort of reactionary attitudes in post WWI Germany, eventually giving us the sizan and Hitler

Just advocated immigration on Facebook.

good on you dude. one step at a time.

Shum wrote:good on you dude. one step at a time.

Well I've never been wholly anti-immigration...just against certain sub-cultures but maybe it's wrong to generalise races/nations and tar them with the same brush. I still think that something needs to be done about key issues like social housing-which like it or not is a shortage at least partly down to immigration-but we can't radicalise against immigrants wanting to come here for a better life I guess-that was the dream my own grandfather had when he came over from Ireland no doubt. And immigrants that abuse the system by coming here to commit crime-well I think we can all say they're not welcome-we've got enough British criminals as it is.

just one thing fyi though:

jaydot wrote:And immigrants that abuse the system by coming here to commit crime-well I think we can all say they're not welcome-we've got enough British criminals as it is.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/ ... pact-crime

DrGatineau wrote:@magma & other british people, do you think UKIP is something of a "copycat movement" of the tea party or at least gets some of their momentum and ignorance from them?

A little bit of yes, a little bit of no and a little bit of the reverse.

UKIP is essentially the party that was created by the Conservative party's complete inability to find a stance they were happy with on Europe during the 90s and 00s. John Major's last Conservative government (92-97) was pretty much ripped into two between Pro-Europeans and Eurosceptics. In the end, as Europe has always been pretty good for us economically, we did everything but actually join the Euro - if the sceptics hadn't created so much noise we probably would have at least had a referendum on the Euro in the 90s, but they had so much impact on the national conversation that we've still never been given the choice for fear of upsetting them.

UKIP was the party that was created by the wreckage the 'new' Tory party didn't want to take responsibility for anymore. Nearly-respectable Eurosceptic Conservatives at the heart and on the fringes all your borderline racists and whackjobs that used to make up the back benches of the Conservative party when it was utterly unelectable - it imploded in very similar fashion to the GOP post-Obama in the mid nineties (in-fighting, sleaze scandals, weird sex stories, Neil and Christine Hamilton..) and were pretty much a joke for the best part of a decade. They've been around since 1993, so they're not exactly a new thing - my 'little bit of the reverse' is that you could argue the Tea Party is the American UKIP; though I don't think they're really connected tbh.

Nationalism and loud-mouthed, lowest-common-denominator politics are an unfortunately common symptom of economic downturns. It's the easy answer to everything and so it has a sort of common sense ring to it; it's that old wives tale, pub expert intelligence that's so easy to sound clever to people who aren't really paying full attention because they're too busy trying to work out how they're going to pay the electricity bill...

- Well, obviously the country would be better off if we're not paying for all those bloody foreigners!
Except, those foreigners are actually paying for us.
- I can balance my budget at home, surely the chancellor can make the country's economy add up!
Well, actually macro-economics is an extremely unreliable and unpredictable science that nobody has truly cracked in the best part of 10,000 years.
- The benefit cheats are taking money that you earn honestly!
Actually, unclaimed benefits outweigh wrongly claimed benefits so it actually balances out in 'our' favour. And unpaid corporation tax blows both of them completely out of the water.
ad infinitum

Phigure wrote:

just one thing fyi though:

jaydot wrote:And immigrants that abuse the system by coming here to commit crime-well I think we can all say they're not welcome-we've got enough British criminals as it is.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/ ... pact-crime

Don't think that covers new EU migrants also what about petty crime like pickpocketing and begging? If you can call begging a crime. A lot of that goes unreported.

If it goes unreported, then how can you describe the level of that crime with any certainty? Only an omnipresent being would be able to carry out such a task.

wait, begging is a crime?

jaydot wrote:

Phigure wrote:

just one thing fyi though:

jaydot wrote:And immigrants that abuse the system by coming here to commit crime-well I think we can all say they're not welcome-we've got enough British criminals as it is.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/ ... pact-crime

Don't think that covers new EU migrants also what about petty crime like pickpocketing and begging? If you can call begging a crime. A lot of that goes unreported.

It doesn't quote the study but if they're sensible they'll go by the crime surveys and not the police statistics

Actually, it's more likely to be the Greens in that position at this rate

are the tories not just giving the greens more credibility so they have a better alternative than ukip for a new coalition? (lib dems are now passe obviously)

therye giving greens more credibility to split the left wing vote. less votes for labour means more chance of the tories getting in.

the idea of a ukip tory coalition is terrifying

seems like theyll take whatever they can get to stay in power
but yes tories + ukip would be fucking horrendous

despite potentially raising the profile of left wing values, Cameron doesnt care
All pretty much any politician cares about is getting into power
its up to the media to decide on policies pretty much (Murdoch basically)

DJoe wrote:despite potentially raising the profile of left wing values, Cameron doesnt care
All pretty much any politician cares about is getting into power
its up to the media to decide on policies pretty much (Murdoch basically)

the way its coming across is he's going tory from what i can see. the way the tory conference was spun with the crazy big holes in their spending plans getting totally glossed over while labour were dragged over the coals for the same