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Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:48 pm
by alphacat
I am vegetarian by choice, not by guilt; to me it's amazing that we're the first known species that can consciously modify its diet to prevent suffering (on the dharma tip.)
When I used to eat meat (and a lot of it at that) a pal - who's still omni to this day - pointed out that whenever I loaded up on burgers, I got a little aggro. To prove him wrong, I stopped eating red meat for a month and lo and behold did in fact lose a little of that testy edge, so I stuck with it. Over time I lost the craving for red meat and eventually everything else... good Sashimi was the last meat I craved, and every once in a blue moon I'll have a bite of someone's fresh fish. Like, maybe every 5 or 6 years. Then the craving's gone again. I firmly believe you should eat what you crave provided you're in tune with it and not just operating out of conditioning. Oh, and I also used to weigh 280 way back then (I'm 6'5") and now can keep a svelte 240-250, no problem.
If necessity demanded, such as travel in a place not capable of offering vegetarian options, then I'd eat the local food. If I or my family were starving, just watch me kill the cow. No problem. Thankfully that's not the case tho.
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One thing that puzzles me about veganism: what do you propose for folks like Mongolian nomads whose land is almost entirely useless for agriculture?
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:54 pm
by magma
Kochari wrote:noam wrote:
Also I think its mad that you have to cook meat and add spices just to make it taste acceptable/not kill you
such an odd point of view, like fucking WELL weird lol
just weird middle class modern toss
Why is it weird?
I don't see you eating yer meat raw?
Plenty of humans have and do regularly though, cooking is a cultural thing (we aren't born even knowing how to make fire) but the culture has enforced a few 'leanings' in the species so we now require meat to be cooked for safety in most populations.
Inuits regularly eat raw meat. As do the French... Steak Tartare anyone?
Chicken's a particularly bad meat to eat raw, especially if it's not overly fresh, but I doubt we would have been eating much of it in the wild... red meat and fish are generally pretty safe raw if the animal didn't die of disease.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:15 pm
by noam
i eat steak rare and i ea a lot of sushi
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:17 pm
by Kochari
^In which case I think it is you who is the weird one Noam
I'm only joking of course. If you wanna eat meat, that's cool. Don't tell me I'm a pussy or a freak for not doing it though
particle-jim wrote:eat whatever you like, don't preach about it, simple really
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:20 pm
by noam
i didn't call you a pussy or a freak
i said its a weird point of view to have that there's no point in cooking food...
kinda different things mate
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:25 pm
by Kochari
I wasn't directing that point at you specifically.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:28 pm
by Genevieve
Kochari wrote:Also I think its mad that you have to cook meat and add spices just to make it taste acceptable/not kill you.
That's because of evolution. Our earliest ancestors ate raw meat. Hah, raw ROTTING meat even cuz most was probably scavenged. Then we started cookin' meat which in a way pre-digested it and we've gotten so used to that that now eating cooked food is required in the human diet.
It's not much different than ants growing fungii specifically to eat them.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:31 pm
by leyenda
magma wrote:Kochari wrote:noam wrote:
Also I think its mad that you have to cook meat and add spices just to make it taste acceptable/not kill you
such an odd point of view, like fucking WELL weird lol
just weird middle class modern toss
Why is it weird?
I don't see you eating yer meat raw?
Plenty of humans have and do regularly though, cooking is a cultural thing (we aren't born even knowing how to make fire) but the culture has enforced a few 'leanings' in the species so we now require meat to be cooked for safety in most populations.
Inuits regularly eat raw meat. As do the French... Steak Tartare anyone?
Chicken's a particularly bad meat to eat raw, especially if it's not overly fresh, but I doubt we would have been eating much of it in the wild... red meat and fish are generally pretty safe raw if the animal didn't die of disease.
I was a bit wary of steak tartare but the Belgian gf prepared it for us the other day and I have to say it was really nice! It really is a case of you're conditioned to think (in the UK at least) that raw = bad/dangerous and it simply isn't the case. Next time she visits she's doing salmon tartare which I'm looking forward to.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:38 pm
by Today
Kochari wrote:I try and do things that are necessary or beautiful (preferably both) and in my opinion eating meat is neither.
Also I think its mad that you have to cook meat and add spices just to make it taste acceptable/not kill you. Pull a carrot out of the ground, job done
the damn cro-magnons cooked meat ffs.
it's as necessary as eating anything --- as in, it isn't necessary, so long as you're eating something else
its ridiculous to try and determine or do just what's "necessary and/or beautiful"
that ain't how survival works, if you want to get to the root of eating. considering you're talking about yanking a carrot up out of the ground to eat, im guessing the culinary artistry aspect is secondary to you
and we only need to cook/spice it if it isn't fresh, or needs to be stored or has been stored for more than a few hours
plenty people eat tartare, sushi, raw beef, whatever
but more importantly,cooked and spiced meat is delicious
idgaf how anyone eats, but when you want to talk about "necessary," eating meat is as necessary as eating carrots or anything else
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:43 pm
by ch3
I'm vegan. Well, mostly.
Have been veggie since i was 12 and after turning 21 became rather strict vegan for 7 years or so. Now, very occasionally I will have something containing egg, or a bit of veggie cheese from Rat's stall. Being too strict has proved to be impractical in some situations, however I'm most comfortable with purely vegan food.
I don't look at meat as food anymore, it's got no appeal to me at all. I don't find tempting, but I don't find it repulsive either. Completely indifferent. I love cooking, and skipping meat, eggs and dairy doesn't makes it any less fun for me. And I'd like to think that others also enjoy the food I prepare.
Magma's view on farming seems a little bit idyllic to be fair. Yeah, I do believe some people still farm the way you describe, with respect for animals that lead, as you said, 'luxurious albeit short' lives, but unfortunately this is not the case for most of the meat industry. The fact that it is 'industry' is very wrong in itself. I don't think I need to describe what conditions animals are kept in, there is enough footage and photos floating around. And that applies to meat, dairy, eggs...
I've got a problem with treating animals as a factory product, as objects rather than living creatures. I also have a problem with torture and ritual killing. I recently read about the fact that majority of Polish export meat 'production' is halal/kosher which means animals are slaughtered with no stunning and bleed out to death (stunning is obligatory by law, but it is exempt when it comes to ritual slaughter) I think this is unnecessarily brutal and shouldn't be allowed at all. And yes, this is how kebab is made.
Have you guys seen Earthlings? It covers not only food, but other industries that rely on animals for their profit - entertainment, sports, clothing, science... And shows harsh reality of how animals are treated in all of these. I think everyone, no mater if they eat meat or not, should be bothered by this state of things. You can find it on youtube, please do consider giving it a go.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:00 pm
by Terpit
I fell out with a guy I work with over ritual killing of animals, he was having a go saying in the west were cruel to animals etc and how good halal is, he thought cows etc were mass electrocuted for some reason. He showed me videos of halal killings and frankly, I was disgusted, they have rows of cows hanging upside down and a it's like a factory, they are moved down the line and a bloke just cuts throats like he's fucking Rambo or something.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:01 pm
by SCope13
Zambezi wrote:5 reasons why I'm fine with eating animals.
You only have to look at our teeth when deciding if we are supposed to eat meat. Canines mofo.
If people didnt eat meat a lot of farm animals would die out as they only exist to be eaten and are too domesticated/stupid to survive in the wild. It's not like I'm eating endangered Tigers or anything.
If you are a vegitarian and you own a dog/cat then your animal is responsible for the deaths of more animals in its pet food then I am in my food.
Vegitarians are really preachy, condescending and irritating which makes me want to eat meat more.
Fillet steak.
That was the worst argument against vegetarianism/veganism I've ever heard. Not even going to waste time responding to you.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:02 pm
by Terpit
You just did
in a way
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:20 pm
by alphacat
. wrote:TEETH, JAWS, AND NAILS
Humans have short, soft fingernails and pathetically small "canine" teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth capable of tearing flesh.
Carnivores' jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores' teeth, human back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods. Carnivores lack these flat molars.
Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, "You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don't have large canine teeth, and we wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines."
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:21 pm
by Today
there is no valid argument against veganism
why would anyone care to change someone elses diet
there are arguments for and against eating meat
they're still trite and useless
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:22 pm
by Terpit
alphacat wrote:. wrote:TEETH, JAWS, AND NAILS
Humans have short, soft fingernails and pathetically small "canine" teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth capable of tearing flesh.
Carnivores' jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores' teeth, human back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods. Carnivores lack these flat molars.
Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, "You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don't have large canine teeth, and we wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines."
Doesn't change anything, I'm sure there are plenty of arguments for and against those points. Whatever, if you wanna eat meat, do it. If you don't, don't.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:46 pm
by Genevieve
alphacat wrote:. wrote:TEETH, JAWS, AND NAILS
Humans have short, soft fingernails and pathetically small "canine" teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth capable of tearing flesh.
Carnivores' jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores' teeth, human back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods. Carnivores lack these flat molars.
Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, "You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don't have large canine teeth, and we wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines."
Mammals living in the arctic tend to have thick fur to protect them from the cold and snow and some even have furry soles on their feet to keep them from getting too cold in the snow. Since humans lack all of these, they should not live in the arctic.
..
Other mammals don't have knives or open flames to cook their food because we don't use our teeth as weapons and evolved to digest cooked meat. Humans evolved from Homo ergaster who stood out from other Hominids from that time in that they likely ate flesh and bone marrow and a lot of our ancestors' remains include bones of other animals with cutting marks from and there's evidence of Homo erectus having cooked food over a flame.
Our pre-hominid ancestors ate plants, or most likely anything, but some, the ones that led to us, started eating meat but because they learned to use tools, they didn't need to evolve physical traits that help take meat apart, because evolution responds only to problems and we've already solved that problem ourselves. But like I mentioned before, it doesn't mean that evolution stood still with us in terms as food because we've evolved to need a certain amount of cooked food.
Basically. You might as well say 'humans shouldn't fly because they're unlike other animals that fly'.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:51 pm
by kidshuffle
Today wrote:there is no valid argument against veganism
heres one: its gay.
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:52 pm
by Terpit
Re: Thoughts on Vegetarians/vegans
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:05 pm
by hugh
Genevieve wrote:alphacat wrote:. wrote:TEETH, JAWS, AND NAILS
Humans have short, soft fingernails and pathetically small "canine" teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth capable of tearing flesh.
Carnivores' jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores' teeth, human back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods. Carnivores lack these flat molars.
Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, "You can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don't have large canine teeth, and we wouldn't have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines."
Mammals living in the arctic tend to have thick fur to protect them from the cold and snow and some even have furry soles on their feet to keep them from getting too cold in the snow. Since humans lack all of these, they should not live in the arctic.
..
Other mammals don't have knives or open flames to cook their food because we don't use our teeth as weapons and evolved to digest cooked meat. Humans evolved from Homo ergaster who stood out from other Hominids from that time in that they likely ate flesh and bone marrow and a lot of our ancestors' remains include bones of other animals with cutting marks from and there's evidence of Homo erectus having cooked food over a flame.
Our pre-hominid ancestors ate plants, or most likely anything, but some, the ones that led to us, started eating meat but because they learned to use tools, they didn't need to evolve physical traits that help take meat apart, because evolution responds only to problems and we've already solved that problem ourselves. But like I mentioned before, it doesn't mean that evolution stood still with us in terms as food because we've evolved to need a certain amount of cooked food.
Basically. You might as well say 'humans shouldn't fly because they're unlike other animals that fly'.
Plus what about other similar creatures - Chimps, Baboons etc have huge meat eating teeth. It's obvious at some point we had ancesters that would have had a meat diet. We just didn't need fingernails and crazy teeth cos our other tools were able to replace them.
