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Just use a frequency analyzer, solo the sub bass and see where is hitting.

deadly habit wrote:harmonics, dynamic range and perceived loudness. get a reading

We Bang wrote:you gonna have to help a brotha out a little then that. what does it mean and where should I look. I can look it up on goole of course but I need to understand what your saying and why so when looking for the subject I know why I am reading it

1. distortion / harmonics

slight distortion on the sub will add harmonics, creating a bigger and warmer sound.
because the harmonics are above the root frequency, you will hear it in the car, on the hifi system etc.
distortion and harmonics can be created with overdrive and distortion plugs, tape emulations, or hard compressing with the right setting. there is plenty of other options but i think these are the most common.
experiment witht the settings of your plugins, and train you ear to notice the difference in character.

this has also got to do with psychoacoustics - a complex topic. one good thing to know is the following:
if harmonics are added to a sound, our brain recognises the root frequency. the trick is, that even if the root note is not played back by the soundsystem/speaker, our hearing will still think it is there!

2. dynamic range

dynamic range is the range between the peak level and the rms level (rms = perceived loudness).
in dubstep music, you will find that most sub bass is very compressed, making shure it has a consistent level.
i analyzed some tunes where the dynamic range shrinks to 5db when the bass drops!

3. perceived loudness

RMS level.


search google for those keywords, you will find and read alot
as far as production goes, try around and learn which plugin is useful for you. then learn about the parameters by ear.

Depone wrote:

apathesis wrote:
Change key to F. F is the best sub

Well, without trying to sound like a dick,
it depends on the rooms acoustics innit!?

that's true.

pete wrote:

deadly habit wrote:harmonics, dynamic range and perceived loudness. get a reading

We Bang wrote:you gonna have to help a brotha out a little then that. what does it mean and where should I look. I can look it up on goole of course but I need to understand what your saying and why so when looking for the subject I know why I am reading it

1. distortion / harmonics

slight distortion on the sub will add harmonics, creating a bigger and warmer sound.
because the harmonics are above the root frequency, you will hear it in the car, on the hifi system etc.
distortion and harmonics can be created with overdrive and distortion plugs, tape emulations, or hard compressing with the right setting. there is plenty of other options but i think these are the most common.
experiment witht the settings of your plugins, and train you ear to notice the difference in character.

this has also got to do with psychoacoustics - a complex topic. one good thing to know is the following:
if harmonics are added to a sound, our brain recognises the root frequency. the trick is, that even if the root note is not played back by the soundsystem/speaker, our hearing will still think it is there!

2. dynamic range

dynamic range is the range between the peak level and the rms level (rms = perceived loudness).
in dubstep music, you will find that most sub bass is very compressed, making shure it has a consistent level.
i analyzed some tunes where the dynamic range shrinks to 5db when the bass drops!

3. perceived loudness

RMS level.


search google for those keywords, you will find and read alot
as far as production goes, try around and learn which plugin is useful for you. then learn about the parameters by ear.

Perfect Pete thanks

HAACK wrote:Since this is a sub bass thread for the mil' time, I have been experimenting on getting a full sub sound by using minor stereo, with proper compression and limiting I stay on mark no more than +3dB.

What are everyone's suggestions about using stereo effects on a sub bass? For an example have a look at SP:MC "Trust Nobody"

your sub bass is peaking at +3db?

pete wrote:2. dynamic range

dynamic range is the range between the peak level and the rms level (rms = perceived loudness).
in dubstep music, you will find that most sub bass is very compressed, making shure it has a consistent level.
i analyzed some tunes where the dynamic range shrinks to 5db when the bass drops!

3. perceived loudness

RMS level.

Isn't dynamic range the difference between the lowest rms level (probably the noise of the system) and the highest peak level? And, RMS isn't necessarily the percieved level, unless it takes into account the equal loudness contours (see Fig. 1)?


(Fig. 1 Ideas taken from ISO 266)

I'm sitting in the library writing a paper on mixing with sub-bass-heavy music at the moment. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm pretty new to sub-bassing, I just use an Ableton standard sub and tune it until it sounds right.

I like getting sub outta samples. place a sound in Sampler....play it on the lower end, if it works ...

Blue Patterns wrote:I like getting sub outta samples. place a sound in Sampler....play it on the lower end, if it works ...

Yes!

The best sub bass i own is from the tail of an analogue tape recording of an 808 Kick. Looped one cycle and then tuned it to be in key. Sounds Phatter than a pure sine as it has subtle overtones.

Depone wrote:

Blue Patterns wrote:I like getting sub outta samples. place a sound in Sampler....play it on the lower end, if it works ...

Yes!

The best sub bass i own is from the tail of an analogue tape recording of an 808 Kick. Looped one cycle and then tuned it to be in key. Sounds Phatter than a pure sine as it has subtle overtones.

808 kik ftw. sometimes i have to keep my self from using an 808 because ive used it in the last 10 tracks ive made and will probably use it in the next 10.

in general, RMS is a mathematical function http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square
the RMS level comes very close to the human perception of loudness, as RMS does not only consider peaks, but more the average level of sound.

kulture wrote:Isn't dynamic range the difference between the lowest rms level (probably the noise of the system) and the highest peak level?

not exactly sure what you mean by lowest RMS level...

there can only be one RMS value at a time, so theoratically if you use a sample rate of 44,1 khz, that would be 44,100 different values that can be measured per second.
for a better understanding of how RMS measurement works in praxis, let's take a look at the TT Dynamic Range Meter http://dynamicrange.de/

here is an axcerpt from the manual, which explains how the measurement works:

In order to determine the official DR value, a song or entire
album (16 bit, 44.1 kHz wave format) is scanned. A histogram
(loudness distribution diagram) is created with a resolution of
0.01 dB. The RMS – an established loudness measurement
standard – is determined by gathering approximately 10,000
pieces of loudness information within a time span of 3 seconds
(dB/RMS). From this result, only the loudest 20% is used for
determining the average loudness of the loud passages.
At the same time, the loudest peak is determined.
The DR Value is the difference between the peak and the top 20
average RMS measurements (top 20 RMS minus Peak = DR).
The top 20 RMS value is not displayed separately. It can be
easily calculated in the head by adding the displayed stereo
(plus decimal place) DYNAMIC RANGE value with the peak
headroom.

kulture wrote:And, RMS isn't necessarily the percieved level, unless it takes into account the equal loudness contours (see Fig. 1)?


(Fig. 1 Ideas taken from ISO 266)

that's an interesting question, of course the equal loudness contours will alter the perception of the sound, but that has nothing to do with RMS or how it is measured (see above).

measured RMS is not connected with how the sound is perceived and changed through physical and psychoacoustic phenomena, including dbSPL, frequency cancellations in the room, sound system characteristics etc.
RMS information will be strictly delivered from the source data and not be affected by any external processes.

kulture wrote: I'm sitting in the library writing a paper on mixing with sub-bass-heavy music at the moment. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

good stuff, let me know if you got more questions. think this is an interesting topic right here

now. i have 2 subs here.
what you think, which one's better. i'll tell you afterwoods what the actual difference is.

Soundcloud
Soundcloud

vulvavibration wrote:now. i have 2 subs here.
what you think, which one's better. i'll tell you afterwoods what the actual difference is.

Soundcloud
Soundcloud

nothing there.

damn it... fkcing soundcloud.

http://soundcloud.com/subquarian/tracks

sub1 and sub2.

you should download them to get optimal quality, cause i think to hear the difference it needs the full quality

pete wrote:that's an interesting question, of course the equal loudness contours will alter the perception of the sound, but that has nothing to do with RMS or how it is measured (see above).

measured RMS is not connected with how the sound is perceived and changed through physical and psychoacoustic phenomena, including dbSPL, frequency cancellations in the room, sound system characteristics etc.
RMS information will be strictly delivered from the source data and not be affected by any external processes.

- Sorry to be pedantic but you said that RMS is the perceived loudness in a previous post. Loudness is affected by the equal loudness contours (a psychoacoustic phenomenon) and many other elements/phenomena. Therefore, RMS is literally what it says it is, root mean square, merely a statistical tool for finding a kind of average of sinusoidal magnitudes -- different from perceived loudness.

EDIT: oh, and with respect to dynamic range, I may be thinking of something different. Because the dynamic range can be defined simply as the lowest signal to the highest signal (the range of levels). Without dither, the lowest signal will be the quantisation error. With dither it will be the dither (noise). Perhaps in mastering or some other process there is a dynamic range term which uses the upper RMS of an entire track?

vulvavibration wrote:damn it... fkcing soundcloud.

http://soundcloud.com/subquarian/tracks

sub1 and sub2.

you should download them to get optimal quality, cause i think to hear the difference it needs the full quality

they are both the same.

A sub takes less than 10 seconds to make. what is all this science shit about>?

fuck this...

just listened to it. yeah. sounds same
on ableton it does not sound same.

the freq. analyzer tells me too that it's a difference.

vulvavibration wrote:fuck this...

just listened to it. yeah. sounds same
on ableton it does not sound same.

the freq. analyzer tells me too that it's a difference.

Use ur ears instead then?

Serious, what are you lot on about?! a sub is a sub! all you need to do is choose which note you want it on lol.

You are getting lost in the science! you are trying to create the best sub ever going or something? fuck it! make a good tune and stick a sine under it. Stop wasting time on rubbish and get creative!