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therapist wrote: There's also a lot of people on the production forum saying they wish they knew more about music theory. I guess this must be linked, but you don't need any kind of theory to sit at a keyboard and press some notes that sound nice.
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I agree.

I find that that some of my better melodies/harmonies come form just noodling around despite me actually knowing a bit about music theory.

Where the theory comes in is expanding your melody into a song

May I recommend listening to a completely different style of music for inspiration? Some of that classic Brazillian pop music does some amazing things harmonically. Lots of left turns that still sound fresh. Might be a source of inspiration, both for your basslines and your chord progression.

Check out this tune by Joyce featured on Four Tet's essential mix for the BBC back in January. Perhaps the rhythms and idiom of the bossa beat don't mesh w/ the dubstep vibe, but if you just isolate the chords and re-orient them to a dubstep feel / rhtyhm / space, it could make for something compelling and inspiring in your tune.

-[2]DAY_- wrote:

therapist wrote: [...] you don't need any kind of theory to sit at a keyboard and press some notes that sound nice. Or maybe even have different instruments in your track playing different notes at the same time [...]

I beg to differ.

i've consumed most of my life to studying that shit and i'm inclined to agree with mr rapist here

music theory can be useful but people tend to take it a little bit as gospel, and end up not experimenting enough to gain any sense of character. Not to mention that there are enough incredibly gifted and virtuosic musicians who couldn't theory themselves out of a paper bag. Dubstep was bourne out of a bunch of kids with fruity loops pissing about with fun sounds and now suddenly everyone acts like it's impossible to write well without a centuries-old set of guidelines?

Hurtdeer wrote:

-[2]DAY_- wrote:

therapist wrote: [...] you don't need any kind of theory to sit at a keyboard and press some notes that sound nice. Or maybe even have different instruments in your track playing different notes at the same time [...]

I beg to differ.

i've consumed most of my life to studying that shit and i'm inclined to agree with mr rapist here

music theory can be useful but people tend to take it a little bit as gospel, and end up not experimenting enough to gain any sense of character. Not to mention that there are enough incredibly gifted and virtuosic musicians who couldn't theory themselves out of a paper bag. Dubstep was bourne out of a bunch of kids with fruity loops pissing about with fun sounds and now suddenly everyone acts like it's impossible to write well without a centuries-old set of guidelines?

It's very easy for someone who knows a lot about music theory to say it isn't important but do you seriously believe that you were writing better (or at least as good) music before you learnt about it? Nobody is saying you *cant* make a good tune without knowing any theory but it's clearly very helpful to know. Especially once you've written a melody as someone mentioned above. Though I do it backwards, figure out the chords using bits of theory then just jam a melody over the top.

i have the same discussion with my friend who doesn't know a lot of theory... i'm always like, it doesn't matter, just mess around with stuff until you find how it can all fit together... but he feels it holds him back that he doesn't know as much about it...
but i mean, i never really STUDIED theory, i just messed around on my keyboard and guitar a lot. (actually, i did study it at a couple points... just didn't help me too much)
and now that i've internalized how many chords and notes work together.. i just kinda take it for granted. it's a good point to be at. my advice is to just play as much music as you can

I think playing a ton of music to stretch out, but also listening to tons of stuff (sometimes outside of the genre) will give you great ideas.

You can have great ideas but when you put them together by just guessing things can go wrong.

You have to have a foundation in order to be able to progress. At one point or another you will have to try to communicate your ideas with someone else. I am gona be taking a class on chords cause i recognize that i need to improve in this field. Chords sound pretty and all but they are hard to make.

paravrais wrote:
It's very easy for someone who knows a lot about music theory to say it isn't important but do you seriously believe that you were writing better (or at least as good) music before you learnt about it? Nobody is saying you *cant* make a good tune without knowing any theory but it's clearly very helpful to know. Especially once you've written a melody as someone mentioned above. Though I do it backwards, figure out the chords using bits of theory then just jam a melody over the top.

used to know a lot. Still technically do if I apply some thought, or read/talk about it a bit, it comes back to me moderately quickly... but when I'm writing music, or improvising live, I really don't consciously apply it. I could go through one of my own tunes and explain how it's in this key, it follows this chord progression, ends on this kind of cadence, etc, but at that point I may as well be treating it as someone else's. When I'm writing, I tend to just experiment about and rely on if my ears like/don't like what I've done

but yeah, I agree it's very helpful to know, in that it's a tool. It's a way of setting up a chord structure to play with, it's helpful for understanding which set of notes you can doodle about in without it sounding off in context to the song. It's a brilliant bridge for those moments you get stuck. But I hear a lot of people treat it as a "quick" route to musical mastery, a sort of necessity to imbue any intelligence into your music. And I think, well, shit, this stuff is based off of the works of Bach, which is a quite nice, but centuries old perception of the musical ideal. And meanwhile we've seen how parallel 5ths/7ths have gone from one of the theory's major no-nos to basically driving the appeal of a lot of rock and techno. And hell, come to think of it, even Bach himself constantly broke the theory his music helped write.

By all means, learn it, use it, see what it can do for you... but don't let it become a set of rules to define your music by or your music risks getting increasingly predictable and dull

ug sorry nerding out a bit here

Hurtdeer wrote:

paravrais wrote:
It's very easy for someone who knows a lot about music theory to say it isn't important but do you seriously believe that you were writing better (or at least as good) music before you learnt about it? Nobody is saying you *cant* make a good tune without knowing any theory but it's clearly very helpful to know. Especially once you've written a melody as someone mentioned above. Though I do it backwards, figure out the chords using bits of theory then just jam a melody over the top.

used to know a lot. Still technically do if I apply some thought, or read/talk about it a bit, it comes back to me moderately quickly... but when I'm writing music, or improvising live, I really don't consciously apply it. I could go through one of my own tunes and explain how it's in this key, it follows this chord progression, ends on this kind of cadence, etc, but at that point I may as well be treating it as someone else's. When I'm writing, I tend to just experiment about and rely on if my ears like/don't like what I've done

but yeah, I agree it's very helpful to know, in that it's a tool. It's a way of setting up a chord structure to play with, it's helpful for understanding which set of notes you can doodle about in without it sounding off in context to the song. It's a brilliant bridge for those moments you get stuck. But I hear a lot of people treat it as a "quick" route to musical mastery, a sort of necessity to imbue any intelligence into your music. And I think, well, shit, this stuff is based off of the works of Bach, which is a quite nice, but centuries old perception of the musical ideal. And meanwhile we've seen how parallel 5ths/7ths have gone from one of the theory's major no-nos to basically driving the appeal of a lot of rock and techno. And hell, come to think of it, even Bach himself constantly broke the theory his music helped write.

By all means, learn it, use it, see what it can do for you... but don't let it become a set of rules to define your music by or your music risks getting increasingly predictable and dull

ug sorry nerding out a bit here

I agree.

I think a basic understanding is useful for sure. If you have a story in your head, a message you want to get across it's nice to know what the progressive chord or key to change the mood is.

It's not necessary though, I think by giving it enough time and patience, people with a good ear and story can find the right keys to press.

i know excactly what you mean tbf, even the pros are guilty of this sometimes

I have a good knowledge of music theory and have been playing the guitar and piano for years but when it comes to dubstep my best melodies and rhythms come from me messin around for hours until I stumble on something good.

However, I think my musical knowledge and practice is what lets me reach those melodies. It's not like I sit down and compose a fancy chord progression, but the fact that I know how chord progressions, scales, modes etc. work is what allows me to operate with more freedom when it comes to making melodies.

"Learn the changes, then forget them." - Charlie Parker

SunkLo wrote:"Learn the changes, then forget them." - Charlie Parker

Probably the best advice on here.

Hurtdeer wrote:...music theory can be useful but people tend to take it a little bit as gospel...

yeah, I think its misunderstood in a way. Theory only really exists to put into language what we hear, to describe the way sounds work in relation to eachother. A note being out of key is neither right or wrong in an artistic sense, it just sounds different to a note thats in key, the term explains the difference. You are the artist, its your job to decide which sound works in context. The resulting tune is either good or bad depending on if the listener enjoys listening. Whatever jumbled, out of key mess you plot on the screen, there will be terms in theory to describe it. If it sounds shit its shit, if it sounds good you are a genious who found a clever way of using off key melodies to enhance the feel of a track.

The thing with learning the basics of theory is it forces you to understand music in ways you may not have fully appreciated before. It saves time too, if you are trying to make a really soothing, calm melody you know ok, this set of keys are going to harmonise nicely with whats there so far and these 3 here will sound like a complete abomination. The day you are looking for harmonic abomination you know where to go. Theres two sides to it as well, you can understand everything in theory intuatively and not actually know many terms for it all. I think you need to understand how music works to make it, learning written theory is one way to get there but what is important is that you feel it in the music and can hear how everything interacts, if you have that you can just follow your ears, you dont need the rest.

I learnt it on paper myself, and unless you feel like youre already dubsteps answer to Jimi Hendrix I suggest you do the same you might not NEED it, but you will more than likely be better at what you are doing when you have.