RmoniK wrote:seriously. If you want me to respect their production, sure. But i think their stuff is dull as fuck and i have no interest at all in their music. Their music is just easy to get into for the kidz. There's no other reason they are famous.
If you don't like their tunes that's fine, but I think it's a bit foolish to disregard them as being famous because 'they're easy to get into for the kidz'.
They're fantastic song writers.
Song writing doesn't have to be about making something intellectual and challenging for the listener. Sometimes song writing is about writing a song with 5 chords and a simple melody - doing that well and making a final product that sells to a mass audience is much harder than writing something intellectual.
When you write something intellectual you have the world at your fingertips, you can do anything, you can play any chord you want, you can move into any time signature you want, you can use any instruments you want, you can play in two key signatures at once if you like, hell you can disregard tonality and play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes if you'd like.
Now, if you want to make something that will sell to a mass audience, all those options are rendered unavailable to you and you've got to start making pure gold out of nothing. You've got the first the fifth and the fourth and you've got to make it not sound like shit; then you've got to make it sound like it's going somewhere, when it's not; then you've got to write a powerful melody using maybe only 4 or 5 notes. When you've done that you're still not done because you need to put words to it that 8/10 people will either relate to or enjoy. When you've done all that, you're still not done, you've got to sit down and remove every weakness and imperfection, you need to go completely by the book, things like movement in parallel fifths and doubled up 3rds will fuck you in the ass when you try to sell music to a mass audience, these things are proven to be less enjoyable (to the majority) and ultimately, less sellable; you need to hone the structure to damn near perfection, it needs to rise and peak in the right places, it's got to move on before it gets stale, it's got to end leaving you wanting more, it's got to be crafted so it will work on the radio and the dance floor and in somebody's living room... Oh and you've got to make it sound like they haven't heard it before, when they have.
...Then, when you've done all that, and you're finally done... You need to compete with every other fame hungry wanna be pop artist who just went through the same hell you went through.
Writing to a formula as limited as the pop formula is damned hard and incredibly competitive and you should have a lot more respect for anybody who can do it even if you don't personally like it.
.
This
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:58 am
by 3za
Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes Intellectual = play all the notes at once over and over again for 7 minutes
My mind has been blown, that is truly the work of a Intellectual.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:13 am
by ChadDub
That's usually what I do on guitar, except they're not at the exact same time, I just play them so fast that it sounds like they are.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:58 am
by dmisreal
ChadDub wrote:I lost all my samples and patches from a Pakistanian porn site.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:04 am
by Sharmaji
skipped over what i presumed to be a whole bunch of Pendulum-bashing to chime in that vault is a TUNEEEEEEE> don't think i've ever had a mobile device that's music-capable that didn't have it in a playlist.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:21 am
by RmoniK
I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
Kai I'll agree with you that that's what you usually need to ENTER the mainstream market but it's certainly not what you need in order to stay there and continue to sell records.
Look at this song, terrible structure, no real discern able hook or anything musically interesting at all. Just a random jumble of half finished bits and pieces and eugh. Literally the worst song ever made yet it sat in the charts for a long time just because people thought they were supposed to like the Black Eyed Peas.
That said Pendulum's first album, whilst sloppily mixed down (I know a lot of people disagree with that but psh you're wrong), was a great album. Still wouldn't put them in the same league as Moby or the Prodigy though and their new stuff just sounds like lazy drivel to me.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:00 am
by paravrais
RmoniK wrote:I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
There's nothing interesting about the blues scale? Seriously get off the forum and go smash your head against a cistern for a while.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:15 am
by BassSaber
Personally, I don't feel that songwriting is dead, but just that some have never made the connection, or have become so socially constructed around the idea of genre-defining barriers that they don't try to combine traditional songwriting techniques with producing EDM.
For me, it's something I've always tried to accomplish, in secret mainly because I don't want to look like a sellout.
EDM is meant to be as someone mentioned before complete immersion, reckless abandon, etc. My mate went to a Pendulum concert last year and interestingly enough he didn't do any drugs though he always does so when going to dubstep/dnb rave - presumably to focus on the songs, which are much more definitive songwriting-wise than a rather repetitive DJ event in which each member of the audience is in their own world.
It's interesting that the OP mentioned Pendulum and the Prodigy since the Prodigy are considered genre-definers aren't they? Because they dared to be bold and experiment, and similarly with Pendulum though they have been ostracised for it.
RmoniK wrote:I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
I think it's the fact that they used the scale in the first place that's unique. There's nothing really original in music these days, to be truly original is something rare. Everyone got their influence from somewhere. It's what you do with them that makes it different. On the subject of scales however, I'd like to point out that many great songs have used common scales shared with a million other different songs. It's not the scales, it's really what you do with them, and where you place them.
Pendulum are unique in the fact that they weren't afraid to experiment - their album 'In Silico' for me is quite a gem. No one had attempted quite a crossover between rock and drum and bass, as far as I knew back then, and they get respect in my book for trying to do something different and refreshing. If only more artists would attempt to not only genre-mix but technique-mix, such as mentioned before placing blues scales in the song, try songwriting techniques in EDM, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Nothing is original, we're all using the same system established years ago - it's simply how we use the established norms that count, and that's how you make artists with staying power.
Just my two cents
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:40 am
by RmoniK
paravrais wrote:
RmoniK wrote:I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
There's nothing interesting about the blues scale? Seriously get off the forum and go smash your head against a cistern for a while.
If you just play it up and down a bit there's no real challenge to it, is there? I'm not saying it's not an interesting scale (being a jazz pianist i play it up and down about 40 times a day) but you can't really give them credit for the music they "wrote" and that's what everyone is doing. And it pisses me off. All the kids in my school pretending it to be one of the best melodies ever written. Sure it's catchy, but it's been done. About a couple of million times. And bleh, original, Rusko uses it all the time too, in a more intelligent and interesting manner. I would die to have the production level Pendulum has, but not at cost of writing dull melodies and having all the people still seeing you as a musical genius.
It could just be me, but after hearing and playing the scale all the time, i don't get excited by going up or down the scale anymore. And if you do, it's probably because you are limited by a musical genre. Open your boundaries and discover new stuff.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:17 pm
by deadly_habit
pendulum made some tunes long before they got famous, vault being one of them
just because they're making some cheesy stadium rock stuff now, doesn't void out their previous work
re: v snares, szamár madár and dance like you're selling nails always come to mind for me
but i mean in edm lately i don't hear any real song writing anymore, and i'm not talking dubstep (not like i listen to the majority of it with how shit it is lately anyways), and in even the mainstream pop
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:36 pm
by symmetricalsounds
old pendulum was fuckin sick, as for songwriting today you need to checkout kashiwa daisuke. make sure you check a full album though, i reckon it gets a bit lost if you just listen to odd tracks here n there, go with this one first
then 'program music I'.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:49 pm
by cloak and dagger
so...has nobody here heard the Katy B album? Or the new Kode 9 & Spaceape album? Or Magnetic Man?
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:50 pm
by wub
cloak and dagger wrote:so...has nobody here heard the Katy B album?
Sadly, yes.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:55 pm
by deadly_habit
cloak and dagger wrote:so...has nobody here heard the Katy B album? Or the new Kode 9 & Spaceape album? Or Magnetic Man?
nope, nope and nope and tbh only one seems appealing and that's kode 9
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:43 pm
by VirtualMark
RmoniK wrote:
paravrais wrote:
RmoniK wrote:I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
There's nothing interesting about the blues scale? Seriously get off the forum and go smash your head against a cistern for a while.
If you just play it up and down a bit there's no real challenge to it, is there? I'm not saying it's not an interesting scale (being a jazz pianist i play it up and down about 40 times a day) but you can't really give them credit for the music they "wrote" and that's what everyone is doing. And it pisses me off. All the kids in my school pretending it to be one of the best melodies ever written. Sure it's catchy, but it's been done. About a couple of million times. And bleh, original, Rusko uses it all the time too, in a more intelligent and interesting manner. I would die to have the production level Pendulum has, but not at cost of writing dull melodies and having all the people still seeing you as a musical genius.
It could just be me, but after hearing and playing the scale all the time, i don't get excited by going up or down the scale anymore. And if you do, it's probably because you are limited by a musical genre. Open your boundaries and discover new stuff.
So... what scale would you recommend?
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:54 pm
by ChadDub
Probably Mixolydian Caprinacus scale in 4th minor.
But I love Blood Sugar.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:57 pm
by ChadDub
Also, the Black Eyed Peas are probably the most bland music act I've ever heard.
Re: what happened to songwritting?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:19 pm
by ridethecliche
If you want to talk about crazy musicianship that was accessible to the masses, then look no further than Dave Brubeck.
Time signatures aren't your usual 4/4 bs, crazy syncopated drums, etc etc etc, but the masses still love blue rondo a la turk and take five.
That said, if it sounds good to someone's ears I really don't care unless I have to sit through it. The biggest reason I'm trying my hand at this stuff to begin with is that I've been writing lyrics/slam for a while and then I heard the glitch mob's drive it like you stole it. Then there was a link on youtube of some guy rapping over it. It was freaking clutch. Hip hop over glitch/dub? Wtf?
RmoniK wrote:I'm just saying, Pendulum got famous with Blood Sugar around here, but no offense. That is the most famous scale in the world and there is nothing interesting about it.
There's nothing interesting about the blues scale? Seriously get off the forum and go smash your head against a cistern for a while.
If you just play it up and down a bit there's no real challenge to it, is there? I'm not saying it's not an interesting scale (being a jazz pianist i play it up and down about 40 times a day) but you can't really give them credit for the music they "wrote" and that's what everyone is doing. And it pisses me off. All the kids in my school pretending it to be one of the best melodies ever written. Sure it's catchy, but it's been done. About a couple of million times. And bleh, original, Rusko uses it all the time too, in a more intelligent and interesting manner. I would die to have the production level Pendulum has, but not at cost of writing dull melodies and having all the people still seeing you as a musical genius.
It could just be me, but after hearing and playing the scale all the time, i don't get excited by going up or down the scale anymore. And if you do, it's probably because you are limited by a musical genre. Open your boundaries and discover new stuff.
So... what scale would you recommend?
You're not listening. I'm saying the blues scale is good for catchy melodies, but Pendulum uses it in the most boring manner, just going up and down, and they get way too much credit for that. When they actually didn't do anything.
