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deadly habit wrote:

nowaysj wrote:There are some legit waves plugs, don't deny. As a general proposition, I think it is kind of crazy though.

oh no doubt, anyone who buys the diamond or mercury etc is nuts

No they are real professional music engineers/producers.

lloydy wrote:Waves diamond/mercury bundles=more money than sense

Same as above.

TheWallOfSacrifice wrote:waves are only name and marketing

They have been used on countless hit records for a couple of decades now, and they are still being used all the time.

TheWallOfSacrifice wrote:they are now easily surpassed by the likes of u-he and fabfilter

They offer very different products, aimed at different markets. You can't really compare them.

TheWallOfSacrifice wrote:don't believe the hype!!

The saying, "don't believe the hype!!!" is so hype nowadays, I don't believe the hype of it anymore

Waves best be paying me for this post, as I'm just another part of their grand marketing scheme...
I don't use Waves

yeahhhh some professionals buy them, but as stated it tends to be the folks more money than sense that buy them
i had plenty of people like that at my old job at guitar center who had 0 experience with making music and wanted anything shiny or whatever they read someone used and god help them they had tons of cash to spend and in spite of me trying to talk some sense into them i still had a fat commission since they wouldn't listen

also the pros that i saw buy waves stuff often did it due to having to import mixes from artists they were working with or at their insistence, so they got their money back and then some

if you look at the cost of buying the top-end waves things vs. hardware, it's nothing at all. Buy one 1176 and one LA2A and you're out between $3500-4k. and that's just for mono. If you make your living making music, this stuff makes sense for sure.

I'm sure there's a quality gap between Live's native compressor and a Waves one, but from what I can tell most people just make assumptions and start downloading shit without reason. So the quality gap may be there, but for 99% of producers I don't think it makes a difference because they don't really know what the hell they're doing anyway. If you can't pinpoint a reason why a native plugin isn't working for you (for example Rob Swire said he uses a certain compressor because it subtly colors a specific frequency range in some way), you're probably not developed enough as an engineer to move on to something else, much less something you'll spend more money on.

In short, imo for most producers it doesn't make any difference and even if the absolute top tier producers were restricted to stock plugins in their daw (or the few that don't already work this way for the most part), I doubt many of us could tell a difference.

While certain paid plugs can, no doubt, improve the sound quality...it needs to be acknowledged that with or without paid plugins, any sound...any collection of harmonics, can be created. This means that the same sound can be generated with or without these plugins, although it's likely to be a bit more difficult.

I think that is overstating it, a little.

Hell, you can use default factory effects from your D.A.W...What I think is VERY important (that not all can unfortunately do) is that it should get some analog outboard love. (preamp console channel, compressor/limiter, even through a guitar/bass amp combo [through headphone audio out])

I'm trying to get an ATS-1 Analog Tape Simulator for mixing final tracks before mix-down.

So when it comes to quality, don't care for expensive plugins... I'll use free effects vst/vsti as long as the track goes O.T.B. through transistors, tubes, cables, analog circuitry, e.t.c. before going back in. All this to get great studio tone.

nowaysj wrote:I think that is overstating it, a little.

yeah just a tad. big up your optimism though jisrael.

Shum wrote:

nowaysj wrote:I think that is overstating it, a little.

yeah just a tad. big up your optimism though jisrael.

Do you know something I don't?

I could cut steak with a butter knife, and i can also cut steak with a cleaver.

I know how to cut steak pretty well, and can do it with both knifes.

The out come with be different regardless of how well i know how to use the knife.

Waves makes excellent plugins, but they're for people who've made the decision to invest in themselves and their gear.
I've been rethinking the whole warez debates lately because i wanted to buy Rosetta Stone, but hesitate because i only want to pay for it if I know it'll be effective. Which is tough because it's proven to be effective, it's just contingent on my dedication, effort, and time.

Same goes for people cracking warez to fiddle with music production. I realized that I'm in a minority of people who know production is a part of their career and are working toward a profession; so i started with demos and made my decisions to invest in certain equipment, which i bought. Also tech support and updates are more important to people like me, when getting shit to work means satisfying a client or having a reason to show up for work in the morning.
Waves develop industry standard tools. Their digital limiters are unrivaled imo, their emulations are great, and i got a huge amount of utility from the bundle i got (platinum) -- it was a good $1200 spent, but not for everyone. Some of the plugs are replaceable with freeware, and some are definitely not. But the bundle was priced and positioned right for me.

[quote="Vast-Grid"]Hell, you can use default factory effects from your D.A.W...What I think is VERY important (that not all can unfortunately do) is that it should get some analog outboard love. (preamp console channel, compressor/limiter, even through a guitar/bass amp combo [through headphone audio out])

even that is vastly overrated. I say this while i've got a whole hornets nest of shit hooked up while mixing a record for a client, but i've mastered stuff that people have ran through their $xxxx compressor/limiter/etc and ultimately asked for the naked digital files to be sent. Just doing something in "hardware" doesn't necesarrily make it better.

Today wrote:Their digital limiters are unrivaled imo

Have you tried the demo of FF's Pro-L?

The quality of plugins, mixdown, and mastering are less important than the quality of your idea, sounds, and songwriting.

I think we all spend way too much time wondering about processing, mixing down, mastering, etc when we could be writing some crazy tunes.
Kalawanji was done with stock FL6 plugins on a broken hi-fi. More recently, look at Helix - Drum Track. It's hardly a masterclass in production, but its the idea, not the execution, which counts.

You can get away with wonky production (e.g a lot of dubstep, lots of hip hop, dub, etc) if you have a recognisable sound or if the idea is good.

Sleng Teng wouldn't be the same if someone had gone and got the most 'quality' electronic keyboard around at the time!

I think there is an argument to be made for high quality plugs

but it depends on your goals and what you are trying to do.

FOR EXAMPLE If you are making Bro-stuff, I would be hard-pressed to find producers who arent using Ohmicide/Camelphat/or similar high quality distortion plugs

now thats not to say you CANT make this stuff without them, you could with DAW stock plugs and freebie distortion units.... but at the same time, there is a reason everyone is using them... they are good

I'd say yeah..there's a big difference...and it's kind of a common sense answer..would I put Soundgoodizer on everything or Izotope Ozone 5..also with the dithering options in Izotope/Ableton Live effects, which is more accurate for sounds..plus Ableton Live plug ins have a high quality setting so I'm guessing it goes through more ''behind the curtains'' processing.

There's a lot of things that go into the factor of which plug in is better. I'm not a programmer but I'm sure that some plug ins are complex with the sound processing. Whereas some do simple-little to the audio.

Sharmaji wrote:even that is vastly overrated. I say this while i've got a whole hornets nest of shit hooked up while mixing a record for a client, but i've mastered stuff that people have ran through their $xxxx compressor/limiter/etc and ultimately asked for the naked digital files to be sent. Just doing something in "hardware" doesn't necesarrily make it better.

Define better for you. For me, even some horrrid sounding free vsti (w/free vst effects used) track sent through a bunch of my outboard stuff will definitely sound better (rounder,open, musical, studio tone).
I think mixing was the issue about the digital mess you mentioned, not tone.