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Sidechaining. But I’m not sure how you do it exactly.

I just cut everything below 100 Hz on my kicks to leave room for the sub and have them overlapping slightly - just run the sub up to 110Hz or something with a sloped eq curve. It seems to work for me but I’d like to hear what some of the ‘pros’ do to get theirs to sit nicely.

Trevelyan wrote:So say I like my kicks to sound thick, and bassy. But I also want fat sub. Obviously a way to deal with it is not to use kicks over sub, but thats pretty restrictive.

well, you could have a kick high passed at 90/100hz and then the subs underneath, as long as they hit together the combo will give the impression of a weightier kick. if you want the kick to still sound weighty in the intro, before the bass drops then just put a sub hit underneath each kick drum.

Trevelyan wrote:One other thing...

So say I like my kicks to sound thick, and bassy. But I also want fat sub. Obviously a way to deal with it is not to use kicks over sub, but thats pretty restrictive.

Is there a way to run it so that the kicks are full when alone, but that when the sub hits some of the bass gets taken out of the kicks? I imagine its some sort of compression? But I don't know how to make it so the bass is dominant (ie takes priority), and so that it has regard for eq rather than just volume... Is it even possible in Reason?

Also it would have to be subtle I guess to keep the energy

yeah its piss easy in reason. have a mastering compression set up on your sub. Get the kick drum channel, slpit it with a spider, send one back to your mixer, and one into the side chain input on the back of the M-class compresser. That's it really, everytime your kick sounds the sub synth will duck down for it according to your compressor settings. It sounds pretty impressive first of so you might be tempted to use to much ratio, but it gets tiring by the end of the track and in the long run you are better of just using a more subtle compression. Also if you have sections of your bassline that rise up out of the kick zone for whatever reason, you may want to automate the compression settings because you might want the synth to be untouched up there.

I use subtractive eq ing in the mixdown on individual tracks so that all song parts have their place in the Freq spectrum then on the stero mix i place an eq then a multiband compressor. then limit if needed

another good idea is the sort out the freq between the kik and the bass meaning if i boost 60 Hz with a narrow bandwith (Q) on the kik i'd cut 60 Hz from my bass by a few Db with a narrow bandwith on the bass

fliPPo wrote:

Trevelyan wrote:

gravious wrote:

Trevelyan wrote: Is it fair to say that theres a correlation between how busy a track is and how much volume you can get out?

To an extent. If you have lots of things going on, then there will be lots of parts where frequencies overlap. When similar frequencies overlap you get higher peaks, and this can cause clipping. Therefore it kind of makes sense that if you only have one bass part, one high/mid synth and drums going at the same time, each part can probably be made to sound louder without clipping than some multi instrumental madness!

If you're clever/obsessive with the eqing, you should be able to sort out some of these overlaps without making too much difference to the apparent loudness of each part of a tune. I'm quite shit at it though, so someone else might be a better source on this!

Thanks for your time bro. That has helped clarify things in my mind. Its kind of annoying news, but i guess thats just how it goes!

So its about identifying which frequencies are causing peaks, and removing unnecessary signal from them? How can the frequencies be identified? I use Reason and Sound Forge

I use my ears mostly now, but I did develop an excel spreadsheet that will tell you this. If you have somethig like wavelab that can bounce out raw frequency response data in a text file, or a plugin like PAZ analyzer, bump all your channels into the spreadsheet, cou can get an idea where the nasty peaks are and what frequencies in what channels need cutting. You should aim to be able to use your ears but for learning, or someone who is not very familiar with their monitorsing situation, its a good place to start to get your head around what's happening and what it sounds like.

Thats a great way to analyse! Never thought of doing anything like that...

A more basic way to see whats causing clipping is jsut to bounce the audio (loud enough that its clipping at points) and open it in wavelab/soundaforge. You'll be able to see the peaks where the audio is clipping, and if you listen to those parts of the soundfile, you'll see what combination of sounds is causing the peak/clipping to occur.

Although sorting out/eqing the frequencies afterwards is still going to be partly guesswork/trial-and-error, looking at the peaks at least points you in the right direction, and shows where the problem is occuring.

fliPPo wrote:

Trevelyan wrote:One other thing...

So say I like my kicks to sound thick, and bassy. But I also want fat sub. Obviously a way to deal with it is not to use kicks over sub, but thats pretty restrictive.

Is there a way to run it so that the kicks are full when alone, but that when the sub hits some of the bass gets taken out of the kicks? I imagine its some sort of compression? But I don't know how to make it so the bass is dominant (ie takes priority), and so that it has regard for eq rather than just volume... Is it even possible in Reason?

Also it would have to be subtle I guess to keep the energy

yeah its piss easy in reason. have a mastering compression set up on your sub. Get the kick drum channel, slpit it with a spider, send one back to your mixer, and one into the side chain input on the back of the M-class compresser. That's it really, everytime your kick sounds the sub synth will duck down for it according to your compressor settings. It sounds pretty impressive first of so you might be tempted to use to much ratio, but it gets tiring by the end of the track and in the long run you are better of just using a more subtle compression. Also if you have sections of your bassline that rise up out of the kick zone for whatever reason, you may want to automate the compression settings because you might want the synth to be untouched up there.

Sick! I didn't know the m-class could do sidechaining, thats big. Will be getting involved with some synths too. The m-class munch my CPU though

Out of interest, do any EQ units allow sidechaining? So that the eq is only applied when the input signal triggers it? I guess for a less complex EQ you could just automate a filter

This is a great thread.

Mixdowns are the biggest problem for me atm.

I can come up with melodies, beats and basslines pretty easily, and arrange them, so it sounds somewhat like a tune.

But when it comes to mixdowns im lost!

When i compare my tracks to other peoples tracks, especially known producers tracks, my tunes sounds like it's coming from another room or under a blanket or sumfink

I'd really like to learn the technics how to get my sounds solid and defined, and my drums loud and snappy, so that every instrument is hears clear and bright, not some mumblebassmidrangemuff.

It's even worse when i have played my tunes in a club or big soundsystem...

I know that i should start with good sounds at the beginning when i start building my tune, and roll off any unwanted bass frequencies from instruments that doesn't need them, i also usually dont apply that muchEQ(usuallu none), but leave them pretty flat (except the bass cuts) unless i use a channel strip with a preset EQ setting.

With panning i tend not to pan too far, hihats at the other side than shakers etc..sub, kick snare and lead sounds in the middle

About compression.. i dont know shit about it. If i use compression i usually just use a preset for the sound that im compressing...usually it sounds louder haha:P (maybe thats the next thing i have to start to study about) Some people say that u should use compression, some people say the opposite ?

Usually drums are the loudest instrument in my mix when it comes to levels, cos i like the snappy snarehits that some producers have !
Then the bass.

most of the time i work in midi, audiotracks when i use a long drumloop or break, vocal track or something.

dunno... any advice would be more than appriciated, even basic ones...co's i dont know shit!

how much professional mastering affects the sound etc ?

tmu wrote: I'd really like to learn the technics how to get my sounds solid and defined, and my drums loud and snappy, so that every instrument is hears clear and bright, not some mumblebassmidrangemuff.

This tends to work well for me ..
Mixdown to a peak of -6db.
Use a spectrum analyser - Im using XL inspector) - this has a spectagram which shows kind of thermal colours in real time across the freq range.

Use this as a reference on each track to find where the main frequency of each sound is situated and also where the harmonics that create the detail of the sound lie.
I then use an warmer/compressor on the sounds that I want to be defined and solid
PSP vintage warmer is a good one as it will let you add warmth to specific frequencies
then do the same thing with an eq to cut the uneccessary frequencies / create the space for the sound etc.. and if need be.. carefully boost the main frequencies

Basically the spectagram will allow you to see the quality and detail of the sounds/samples that you are using and help you get them sounding full of presence in you mixdown before you even start touching upon the levels of you master output.
...but yeah - this is what is working for me at the mo

if you're using reason i suggest you'd rewire it to cubase or something and use proper vst eq's and compressors and whatnot for the mixdown.

also a good spectrum analyzer is a helpful tool if you need to find the clashing frequencies. however even though the graphic eq's are good tools, try to avoid mixing down with your eyes instead of your ears. i mean don't do the eq settings just because they should look like something. if you get what i mean lol.

anyway, go for voxengo stuff for example. not too expensive either. you can get their analyzer plug for free. it's called span.

sorry if i don't make any sense, i'm a bit hung over still.

rjv wrote:if you're using reason i suggest you'd rewire it to cubase or something and use proper vst eq's and compressors and whatnot for the mixdown.

Bounce them down to Wav, because:
- you'll concentrate on the mixing, rather than sequencing/arranging/noodling with synths
- saves cpu power
- Rewire is a fuckin ball ache, man

rjv wrote:try to avoid mixing down with your eyes instead of your ears.

*nods in strong agreement*

Batfink wrote:well you have a set amount of headroom in a digital signal. once you get to 0db thats it, youve hit the ceiling. but my understanding is that by carefully balancing the frequencies in a tune you can use that headroom more efficiently and thus get more volume.

to take a toally random example, you might have peaks at 70hz (bassline overlapping with the kickdrum), 300hz(snare overlapping with your midbass), 900hz (hihat clashing with the top end of your snare sample) and 1khz (a vocal sample clashing with your synths). If you strip those clashing freqs out, it might allow you to raise the overall volume of a track by a few decibels.

i think jtransition is the man for this kind of question tho, as my understanding is far from scientific...

yeah i think the frequncies seperating is one of the/ if not the most important thing in the mastering stages. and as for ther kick drum and bass thats where its important to learn sidechaining. im still learning and progressing but getting rid of the un-needed frequencies is essential.

Pads and atmos seem to always be forgotton really. It's like alot of pads will have alot of load low frequency sounds but the actual emphasis is the higher sounds we can hear rather than "feel".
Graphic equalizers help-cut off everything below the certain freqency and make sure that there is minimum other sounds in that frequency zone clashing. That way when everything is seperated and in its own range,thus having more "room" then you can turn it up way up loud cos none of the frequencies are piling up to the ceiling. Viewing it in spectral view helps too so you can see the sounds and how they play out in the mix.

again, thats just the way i think it is, wouldn't quote me 100% on anything.

rjv wrote:if you're using reason i suggest you'd rewire it to cubase or something and use proper vst eq's and compressors and whatnot for the mixdown.

also a good spectrum analyzer is a helpful tool if you need to find the clashing frequencies. however even though the graphic eq's are good tools, try to avoid mixing down with your eyes instead of your ears. i mean don't do the eq settings just because they should look like something. if you get what i mean lol.

im using Logic's own EQ's & compressors (dunno if they'r good?)

started using spectrum analyzer just a while ago, still gettin the hang of it...

...so i do need to cut more than the sub freq's if theres sumfink clashin ..?

Thanks! really appriciate the advices everyone !

what sounds usually need compression? drums etc ?