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Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:38 pm
by ultraspatial
there's places where abortion or homosexuality are illegal via religion/culture. don't see how this is different from places where sharia law is instated
as for other "dangerous" religions, iirc in europe way more terrorist acts are commited by christian extremists
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:16 pm
by topmo3
OGLemon wrote:A lot of Islamic fundamentalism seems to be fueled by Western imperialism. You also have to remember that the middle east didn't go through the liberalization of society that the West did. Most of the region has been ruled by theocratic monarchs since the dawn of civilization. This is probably the main reason why Iraq's democracy has been pretty much a failure. You can't invade a land, install your values, leave, then expect the people to adhere to them. Change in society must come from the will of the people. Back on topic, I believe the idea that religions are inherently peaceful or violent is too simple of a characterization. What matters is how people interpret the text and how they project this interpretation in their lives.
The case many people make for Islam being a violent religion can also be made for Judaism and Christianity.
this is a fair point that i somehow forgot in my post. basically, if a western country would be bombed to bits and fucked up like some of the "terrorist" countries i'm sure the frustration would build up to the point that people start killing each other
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:23 pm
by dickman69
I feel its a bit of a stretch to use western intervention as an excuse for ISIS trying to launch a crusade, cleanse the world of persians/kurds & establish a new caliphate
I'm pretty sure there were wahhabist muslims around in saudi arabia before western intervention, they just hated shias instead of shias + the west
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:19 pm
by phrex
ultraspatial wrote:people seem to forget that external jihad is not the most important thing in islam
just to clean up that mess of prejudice a bit:
Jihad means ''effort'' and nothing else. it doesn't mean bombing, nor does it mean killing or hurting. simply ''effort''.
it's all about how the qur'an is interpreted.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:32 pm
by ultraspatial
where did i say that jihad = bombing ?
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:34 pm
by karmacazee
I think people will find any excuse they need in order to dominate others.
Easiest form of domination is through fear of violence/death.
Anyone looking to dominate, therefore, will naturally consider the easy option, which is violence or fear of death.
Why do people want to dominate, and what legitimises this compulsion?
I can't answer the first part of that question, but the second part of it is definitely ideology and religion.
You can legitimise any kind of domination, control and power using ideology or religion.
And I suspect that the realisation that ideology/religion can legitimise these kinds of thinking, may actually be the cause of why people feel the urge to dominate over others. A self perpetuating loop.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:12 pm
by lovelydivot
As if the world is stopping them from sending their little kids to mosque to recite prayers all day.
Sorry guys - I had to behead some people to achieve that.
bullshit - none of this is religion.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:15 pm
by phrex
ultraspatial wrote:where did i say that jihad = bombing ?
nowhere. i misread ur post :p
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:28 pm
by scspkr99
On a religion forum I frequent a postera catholic naively tried to argue that Islam is a religion of peace. Most disagreed and some claimed, correctly in my view that Islam was neither a religion of peace or a religion of violence. He went to an Islamic forum to rally support for his position and most of the muslims that responded to him there, plus those that registered on the forum where he posted, disagreed with him.
I generally think it's a mistake to conflate a view that's currently held by 1.6bn people, there are accounts within Islam that are a real concern but Islamophobia is also a thing.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:29 pm
by jaydot
Islam seems amongst the more "secretive" religions-they have their own faith schools, they mix largely amongst fellow Muslims for the most part-who knows what sort of things could be plotted down your local mosque?
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:41 pm
by OGLemon
jaydot wrote:Judaism seems amongst the more "secretive" religions-they have their own faith schools, they mix largely amongst fellow Jews for the most part-who knows what sort of things could be plotted down your local synagogue?
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:53 am
by test_recordings
The interesting thing I noticed about synagogues is that they all have security staff for the Sabat, I don't know any other religion that's that bothered
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:50 am
by bennyfroobs
OGLemon wrote:A lot of Islamic fundamentalism seems to be fueled by Western imperialism. You also have to remember that the middle east didn't go through the liberalization of society that the West did. Most of the region has been ruled by theocratic monarchs since the dawn of civilization. This is probably the main reason why Iraq's democracy has been pretty much a failure. You can't invade a land, install your values, leave, then expect the people to adhere to them. Change in society must come from the will of the people. Back on topic, I believe the idea that religions are inherently peaceful or violent is too simple of a characterization. What matters is how people interpret the text and how they project this interpretation in their lives.
The case many people make for Islam being a violent religion can also be made for Judaism and Christianity.
^ this x100000
topmo3 wrote:islam is as much a religion of peace as christianity imo. all of the abrahamic religions have their history and it's not always nice.
^ and also this
loads of religions have histories of violence. just look at what zionists are doing in palestine right now. look at what christians did during the crusades. the persecution of hindus in india. all a bunch of dicks with some horrible violent agenda, and a load of old outdated crazy books full of violence for them to justify it
lovelydivot wrote:bullshit - none of this is religion.
it clearly is
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:11 am
by mks
What the Jews are doing to the Gazans is terrible.
What the Christians did during the Crusades and the Inquisition is horrible.
What the Muslims are doing to all that don't believe, and even those that do believe, but in different way is despicable.
Killing in the name of...
Religion sucks. The only one OK with me is Buddhism, and just the more day to day aspects. Not all of chanting and stuff, just trying to better yourself. They don't teach a "GOD", just ways to live.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:21 am
by DrGatineau
I don't think Islam is a religion of anything. I don't think religions are things that "exist" and have fixed characteristics. Religions are just social constructs, and only exist within the thoughts/behavior of the people who believe they are adherents of them. It's clear that there is a small, but substantial, minority of "Muslims" that are not peaceful. However there are also some Jews in the region that aren't very peaceful either. On the other hand, there are both Jews & Muslims in the Middle East and other parts of the world that are peaceful.
ie, it's the people that aren't peaceful, not the religion.
I think that religion, or any other form of ideology/identity that has such a powerful stronghold on peoples' behavior, causes people to think & behave irrationally. If we removed the religion from the equation, I think the people that live in the Middle East would be forced to confront their problems through the lens of rationality, which would allow the problems to be solved given a good amount of time (maybe 50 years?). Obviously there are other identities present and other social factors that wouldn't allow for immediate dissipation (oppression, occupation, gender, race, etc), but Islam is clearly the strongest and most problematic ideology/identity in that part of the world imo.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:28 am
by lovelydivot
bennyfroobs wrote:
lovelydivot wrote:bullshit - none of this is religion.
it clearly is
Ok you got me…
But it's not gonna take much to turn me back to hating organized religion
and dogma in general.
Well spoken Jags - I agree - think identity is their biggest issue.
Re: Islam - religion of peace?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:40 am
by bennyfroobs
great ladybug avatar by the way