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spooKs wrote:more to the point when/how/who do i have to massacre to get hold of the untold ep bennyboy

edit: forgot to had a sarcastic because its not actually 'more to the point'

also i'll never call you bennyboy again hopefully

i'll swap you my TP for a copy of empire by distance



har har

apparently it's on the latest ST release sheet, so monday 3rd march innit

this 'bennyboy' thing seems to be taking off a bit. I blame asbo.

Zed Bias & Sunship completely slayed Bristol on Friday, I think its fair to say they probably converted a whole load of people to the 2step revival here

UFO over easy wrote:but then re: jungle it's interesting to ask why the old stuff still sounds good today when the rip off stuff sounds so style, and how you can instantly tell between the two.. it's almost like a reflex for me. when I hear the ultra-fast 180bpm amens and sped up ragga vocals I immediately switch off - it doesn't even succeed in getting me nostalgic - although I suppose it couldn't really, I'm too young. so why is there a practical difference between me experiencing the old stuff for the first time and listening to a new ragga jungle record..

weird

If I had to hazard a (cynical!) guess I would say that we build up associations which guide our responses, so upon hearing something we will immediately, unconsciously calculate characteristics like tempo, grain, and other traits of authenticity which we have had good reason to link with the music which we associate with a movement and time which we respect and want to enjoy, and that that split-second judgement sets a strong tone for our overall judgement as to whether we like it or not... it is not something that I am pleased about by any means but I can't help but feel that it plays a part in my judgements and enjoyment

With regard to the 2step issue, I personally would like to hear more producers reinterpreting and recontextualising the vibe of 2step or ukg, rather than the rhythms. While of course a few do, it seems like (for the most part) a relatively specific range of garage's feeling has been brought through in dubstep, which I think is a shame

Actually, although this might be a bit contentious, weren't jungle and 2 step primarily made by working class producers? Seems like whenever music is re-imagined by the middle classes they lose the cheese, the fun and try and become deeper and more tasteful.

Not trying to offend anyone, does seem to be fairly par for the course though. Think this also applies to rock and rap too.

Shonky wrote:Actually, although this might be a bit contentious, weren't jungle and 2 step primarily made by working class producers? Seems like whenever music is re-imagined by the middle classes they lose the cheese, the fun and try and become deeper and more tasteful.

Not trying to offend anyone, does seem to be fairly par for the course though. Think this also applies to rock and rap too.

hmm im not convinced, i think it would be fair to say that garage in both the us and uk was grounded in aspirations of taste, depth and class!

elgato wrote:

Shonky wrote:Actually, although this might be a bit contentious, weren't jungle and 2 step primarily made by working class producers? Seems like whenever music is re-imagined by the middle classes they lose the cheese, the fun and try and become deeper and more tasteful.

Not trying to offend anyone, does seem to be fairly par for the course though. Think this also applies to rock and rap too.

hmm im not convinced, i think it would be fair to say that garage in both the us and uk was grounded in aspirations of taste, depth and class!

Yeah, but the middle class might be aspirational but they won't do it with the joyous vulgarity though.

You can't really aspire to something if you already have it. Music born of struggle and escaping humdrum reality generally has more fire to it than music to match your soft furnishings

Only semi-joking but I do think there's some truth to it.

might as well give up and go to ikea then I guess.

I keep waiting for a Hardcore revival, but people keep making Happy Hardcore and Jungley/dnb nonsense. Anything faster than 146bpm should be Frisbee'd.

Shonky wrote:Actually, although this might be a bit contentious, weren't jungle and 2 step primarily made by working class producers? Seems like whenever music is re-imagined by the middle classes they lose the cheese, the fun and try and become deeper and more tasteful.

Not trying to offend anyone, does seem to be fairly par for the course though. Think this also applies to rock and rap too.

I think you do have a point - especially if you take niche/bassline as an example. Certain broadsheet publications/sections of the media are overly keen to intellectualize it and make sweeping assumptions about why people up north are going so mad for it, looking for the reactionary element to grime etc - when actually its just quite cheesy/accessible fun music that for alot of people is ideal music to go out and get fucked to on a friday night.

Anyway 2-Step never went away for me.

Shonky wrote:Yeah, but the middle class might be aspirational but they won't do it with the joyous vulgarity though.

im not entirely clear on what you mean... are you saying that no middle class people aspire to 'vulgarity'? and are you demarcating 'vulgarity' as strictly the product and remit of 'lower' class people?

Shonky wrote:You can't really aspire to something if you already have it. Music born of struggle and escaping humdrum reality generally has more fire to it than music to match your soft furnishings

these two need separating straight away. further, do you think that frustration with humdrum reality and a need to escape is exclusive to poor people? i would also say that people can struggle in many contexts

Shonky wrote:[
Yeah, but the middle class might be aspirational but they won't do it with the joyous vulgarity though.

You can't really aspire to something if you already have it. Music born of struggle and escaping humdrum reality generally has more fire to it than music to match your soft furnishings

Only semi-joking but I do think there's some truth to it.

Too silly for me to even from a sensible reply. NO.

i'm not interested in reviving the cultural movement that was 2step UK garage - the equivalent to that is currently already happening with funky - i'm interested in retaining the 2step/percussive musical element of dubstep, as was prevelant in the days of dark garage/early dubstep, before it gets lost forever.

once it gets retained, i'm curious about the new possibilities for percussion, though tbh people like Mala are already rhymically miles ahead (Learn, Bury the Bwoy etc...).

The wink after vulgarity should have explained it, but just to clarify, I mean those sort of sounds and riddims that are often frowned upon for being cheesy or too obvious - a similar reaction happens when people are being snobbish about pop music in general.

MBP's point about niche is spot on, sometimes it's just fun music and doesn't need to be explained or have essays written about it.

And to restate - I'm not being completely serious about this

Blackdown wrote:i'm interested in retaining the 2step/percussive musical element of dubstep, as was prevelant in the days of dark garage/early dubstep, before it gets lost forever.

once it gets retained, i'm curious about the new possibilities for percussion, though tbh people like Mala are already rhymically miles ahead (Learn, Bury the Bwoy etc...).

YES

don't forget about the beats!

Shonky wrote:The wink after vulgarity should have explained it, but just to clarify, I mean those sort of sounds and riddims that are often frowned upon for being cheesy or too obvious - a similar reaction happens when people are being snobbish about pop music in general.

MBP's point about niche is spot on, sometimes it's just fun music and doesn't need to be explained or have essays written about it.

And to restate - I'm not being completely serious about this

fair enough! although it makes debate (interesting! but) difficult when there is an unknown quantity of seriousness involved lol

i 100% agree than music doesn't need essays, and that to impose a certain way of understanding or enjoying music on people as some sort of 'truth' is not acceptable, but equally i would say that it works the other way... there is nothing wrong with wanting to experience things in a way that accords with ones own environment or values. and i guess that is my problem with what you're saying (outside of what seemed to be some challengeable associations)... i think that some of the above steps well into an unjustified imposition of cultural ideals (which i think are based on unjustified stereotypes)

i also think that some of it is just factually incorrect too, even if we accept the grounds of the argument. i imagine that lots of 2step producers were middle class, and i know for a fact that vast, vast quantities of middle class producers, ravers and listeners love nothing more than 'cheesy' or 'tasteless' or poppy dance music

elgato wrote:

Shonky wrote:The wink after vulgarity should have explained it, but just to clarify, I mean those sort of sounds and riddims that are often frowned upon for being cheesy or too obvious - a similar reaction happens when people are being snobbish about pop music in general.

MBP's point about niche is spot on, sometimes it's just fun music and doesn't need to be explained or have essays written about it.

And to restate - I'm not being completely serious about this

fair enough! although it makes debate (interesting! but) difficult when there is an unknown quantity of seriousness involved lol

i 100% agree than music doesn't need essays, and that to impose a certain way of understanding or enjoying music on people as some sort of 'truth' is not acceptable, but equally i would say that it works the other way... there is nothing wrong with wanting to experience things in a way that accords with ones own environment or values. and i guess that is my problem with what you're saying (outside of what seemed to be some challengeable associations)... i think that some of the above steps well into an unjustified imposition of cultural ideals (which i think are based on unjustified stereotypes)

i also think that some of it is just factually incorrect too, even if we accept the grounds of the argument. i imagine that lots of 2step producers were middle class, and i know for a fact that vast, vast quantities of middle class producers, ravers and listeners love nothing more than 'cheesy' or 'tasteless' or poppy dance music

Being serious though, I do think that a lot of music that came from folks who's pretty much only way of getting out of a fairly bleak future was by music do have a completely different mindset to those that just have it as one of several options that they can venture into on their career path. Reggae, blues, soul, country and rock and roll were all pretty working class institutions till the late 60's really. Not saying one's better than the other but there's definitely a difference to my mind.

[quote="Dirty Canvas]I think you do have a point - especially if you take niche/bassline as an example. Certain broadsheet publications/sections of the media are overly keen to intellectualize it and make sweeping assumptions about why people up north are going so mad for it, looking for the reactionary element to grime etc [/quote]
Although ironically, the most OTT over-intellectualization of bassline was probably that FACT piece by Mark K-Punk, who tends to write from a militantly working class position...

It'll come back because people will realise that 2 step beats are live to dance to.

Shonky wrote:

elgato wrote:

Shonky wrote:The wink after vulgarity should have explained it, but just to clarify, I mean those sort of sounds and riddims that are often frowned upon for being cheesy or too obvious - a similar reaction happens when people are being snobbish about pop music in general.

MBP's point about niche is spot on, sometimes it's just fun music and doesn't need to be explained or have essays written about it.

And to restate - I'm not being completely serious about this

fair enough! although it makes debate (interesting! but) difficult when there is an unknown quantity of seriousness involved lol

i 100% agree than music doesn't need essays, and that to impose a certain way of understanding or enjoying music on people as some sort of 'truth' is not acceptable, but equally i would say that it works the other way... there is nothing wrong with wanting to experience things in a way that accords with ones own environment or values. and i guess that is my problem with what you're saying (outside of what seemed to be some challengeable associations)... i think that some of the above steps well into an unjustified imposition of cultural ideals (which i think are based on unjustified stereotypes)

i also think that some of it is just factually incorrect too, even if we accept the grounds of the argument. i imagine that lots of 2step producers were middle class, and i know for a fact that vast, vast quantities of middle class producers, ravers and listeners love nothing more than 'cheesy' or 'tasteless' or poppy dance music

Being serious though, I do think that a lot of music that came from folks who's pretty much only way of getting out of a fairly bleak future was by music do have a completely different mindset to those that just have it as one of several options that they can venture into on their career path. Reggae, blues, soul, country and rock and roll were all pretty working class institutions till the late 60's really. Not saying one's better than the other but there's definitely a difference to my mind.

i agree absolutely and for the most part i find music which fits that description more enjoyable, for one reason or another. but i think diversity is a good thing, whether of aesthetic, intention, source or whatever