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I think this is the first time that I've been drawn in so much by what other people have had to say on a topic.

I'd like to thank Two One Oh for bringing to light people who think like me and belive in the music they're making instead of doing it for the sake of doing it or because it's the thing to do.

It seems to me there are some genuine producers on this thread who want that emotion from music and that without it, it does become the formulaic crap that we have pushed on us so, so often.

I can't survive the week without listening to albums like Spokes by Plaid, Electroleum by 7 Hurtz or White Pony by The Deftones. These albums are full of music that constantly inspire and amaze me, and without those little moments of brilliance my mind gets from listening to such albums, my music would descend very quickly into that formulaic crap

I know i sound like a gushing oscar winner, but these things matter to me.

My production will continue to get better as I learn more and more techniques, but i can't let myself get bogged down with too much technical rubbish because i know my music would suffer as a result. I know myself that my tracks aren't the polished gleaming article that they could be, but they're mine. I made them, I'm proud of them and I've had no critisism so far cos of my production quality.

What I'm trying to say is :

I LOVE MUSIC. IT FUCKING ROCKS!!!

agree with the theory behind what Two Oh One is saying, and I've thought about this a fair bit over the last couple of weeks.
He approached me, reminding me to stay focused on the creative side of the music, rather than the logical, technical side.

I fully support that, but here is the thing - engineering is not a craft. It's an art in and of itself.
No spectrum analyzer or compressor is going to inspire you to create a mix that sounds large.
For me, tweaking has really very much become a part of the creative process. As of late my tunes have been a bit less vibey and a bit more techy, but that doesn't mean that I'm more or less inspired when I'm writing tunes than I was when I wrote ie) messiah or sun - my first dubstep tunes - which are much more rough on the production, but with very deep touching and inspired vibes. People actually like those tracks more, but I'm writing for me first, expressing and exploring my own thoughts, feelings and ideas about sound. Yes I take external influence, and I certainly hope people enjoy the tunes.

Now I'm throwing down tunes like dut, which to me is a really good balance between technical artistry and inspired production. I go through a process where by I sit down and I'm at baseline (bassline?). I'm in a normal waking state. my mind is chattery. i'm unfocused. Ideas don't flow. it's hard to start. This period use to be a real motivational issue for me. I've carved out some good habits though - I sit there because I know it will pass very very quickly. next I find that everything in the background becomes less important. By this point in time, I'm usually building up a percussive pattern rather heavily. Layering, playing with snares and kicks and feeling how they interact. Attacking my massive sample library and finding a few elements that fit. I intuitively pick sounds that are in key, I find. From this point on, the percussion is my reference point for creativity. tonally i start to hear the drums talking a bit and ideas start to come. I bob my head a bit and enter a trance just like I did when I first started writing. The deeper that trance, the faster the tunes come together and the more cohesive they end up being. There is very little rational thought happening here. It's not a pattern like *eq drum at 100hz* *eq snare at 200hz*. I don't know what the hell is going to happen. I have no idea what I'm going to layer in . i don't know what the bass is going to end up like. Yes, i spend a good deal of time after selecting an element making it fit in terms of its actual sound quality by processing the crap out of it. To me this is part of the creative process now - there is no seperating it. I have a vision of what the quality, texture, roughness and intensity of the sound should be. I have an indea of the impact I want the sounds to have when they drop. Lately the sights have been half on the heart, half on the body. Heaven and hell - i want both in there! It's the same as the process itself. it's kungfu now. It's black and white, yin and yang, rational and creative. Emtotional and physical. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

But the attitude to which you approach production values must be the same that you approach with the music itself. Don't think *this is how you make a wobble - i'm giong to do this*. creativity is in the moment, so start playing around a bit - esp with things you've never used - and you'll get ideas from listening to the sounds that come out along with the other elements you're working with - don't hear, just listen. Your creative mind will give you the answer In terms of EQ and compression, these are really an art too imo. They're one that takes experience to appreciate as an art first.

Some newbie will come on here and read about layering and eq.

he will drop two kick in his production environment on top of one another and two snares on top of one another and hit play. he'll boost one kick at 100hz and he'll cut one kick at 100hz. because he read that.

After he listens for a bit he'll realize it's not the same as his internal vision. The despair that comes from the innaccessibility of a creative piece due to a lack of production values I believe pushes artists on to the boards amongst the drones that are looking for a process to create music (who will soon become bored and dissapear - don't worry - they'll become dissatisfied when they stop recieving the external re-enforcement they seek because they're tunes are no where near hype). There are real artists here, two oh one, learning because they've hit a brick wall in thier personal satisfaction, or they're not getting the response that they really deserve because most of the listeners are trained a certain way too.

I know a lot of djs/producers that flip back and forth in thier main area of focus. I know I do. I go back and forth between the tables and the buttons every few weeks. I don't think that there is anything wrong with this - i'm still a producer when I'm focusing on spinning plates, and I'm still a DJ when I'm at the buttons. For me, it's also also the same with production technique. Sometimes i'm really ignoring the production values or am hyper creative about them, using my vision of how I want the music to make me feel to guide me until the sound reaches in my ears and grabs my heart. Sometimes I'm hyper logical about the whole process, following new processes/techniques, to add them to the tool belt to use during those moments where the vision is almost making me cry, but not quite or i'll be analyzing the frequencies of instruments, actually rationalizing what my next selection should be - where it should fit in the mix, etc.

Ultimately, though, in both above cases, I'm both an artist and a technician at any moment. While every stroke of the brush is a technical manouver, it is my heart that decides where the brush stroke begins, and where it ends. it is my vision that drives the selection of colours. it is my emotion that inspires to me to continue to learn new things. My emotion does not want to be alone in this world. The feeling of absolute ecstacy that those most inspired moments bring to my life will not allow itself to be alone in this world - so it must be realized as fully as possible in the music and shared with others.

So, when i ask "what are some standard hat patterns", I truly ask so that I may follow that process, and learn from it, putting it in the tool box. If I ask "what is that bass sound", and I learn that through analytical and logical processes, I've now worked with another artist as a student, and a piece of feeling will come with me, changing my creative vision constantly!

also, don't forget the concept of the meme!!

if something is succesfull it will spread throughout a culture.
i don't think there is anything wrong with some cultural reference in music. often times it takes a bit of learning and running through processes to get those in the tool box (ie the wobble).

Fucking hell decklyn thats a good piece of writing... It's definately the way I feel when making music, never seen it put into words like that tho..

That extra element of being a technician was introduced when I started working with a DAW, which wasn't there when playing guitar or drums in bands, when you are being completely creative with the strings or skins you have... But as you say, and I agree, that technical engineering of sounds is just part of the creative process itself, just in a different way, and much more indepth than changing the tuning on a guitar

I want to make music because I've arrived at a point in my life where music is more than just "music", it's part of my philosophical inquiry towards life. So my answer is I want to make music, as well as learn about it, because I am incomplete without it's healing presence, in terms of dealing with the grand scape of all things in existence.

yeah something like that , nice post Two OH by the way *high fi-vah*

production matters to me in the sense that it is fun and gives me something to do.

i couldn't care less about getting a tune released at the moment. i'm all about trying to make some funny music that people will want to listen to again and again, regardless of how well its made or what genre it is.

dubstep wise, i don't really care about production. i've not been making much dubstep recently, whenever i start a new tune i don't think ''i'm gonna make a X genre tune that is totally dutty and will make mandem give me respeck'', i think ''i'm gonna get some beats and some sounds that work together to make someone feel something, whether that be happiness or an intense desire to turn their stereo off and go for a walk''

making MUSIC means a lot to me, PRODUCTION is simply a 'technique' as it were, that will enable me to make better sounding music.
thats how i see it anyway.
if someone wrote bohemian rhapsody as a midi file, for instance, it would still be a good tune. good production on bohemian rhapsody helped it become a better tune, but to begin with, the composition was fantastic - which helps a lot.

old blues music - badly made, but more feeling than any drum and bass.
old reggae music - ruff production, but it SAYS something to you when you listen to it.

to me, production is just getting compositions to sound better.
i love production and hate it at the same time.
sometimes its distracting, sometimes i completely forget about it and focus on the notes.

good production will not save a shit tune
shit production should not ruin a good tune

£10 Bag wrote:good production will not save a shit tune
shit production should not ruin a good tune

4reaaayal

sleepgolfer wrote:

this is the first post that actually made me turn off firefox and go work on my tunes...

deep thoughts, mate...

ye yes yes, after posting my rant in the other thread earlier and then reading peoples comments & this thread i've been hammering at my nu DNB track. come up with some shit i'm really proud of and made my flatmate say' that's fucking sick' which does it for me. this thread is spot on, it's like an AA meeting, everyone's getting there thought's out into the open instead of being cocky/arrogant like most forum threads. everyone deserves a pat on ya back.

that is all. thank you please.

.....go make music.

good music = emotion

everything else is just a pleasant reproduction of notes in a sequence.

oh an hello everyone

Decklyn you eloquent bastard you nailed it on the head in so many ways. That post is the best description of an experience in crafting electronic music that I have read yet.

My 2c which is restating stuff other people said better. Technical Production in electronic music isn't just about ensuring your tracks stand up next to others in a mix, it can shape your sounds in the listeners minds eye, communicating shapes and textures bouncing and sliding around each other, like a sound sculpture. And that has great potential to be art even if their isn't a recognisable note present.


(edit: Christ reading that back it doesn't half come off as negative, I deleted the second half as i don't want it to kill the buzz)

I make music because life is to short to go on without something extra in your life.

Whether that's making matchstick boats or jigsaw puzzles. For me its making music and I've been doing it as a hobby really for over 8 years now.

Now with Dubstep I've finally found a style of music that I have a lot of passion for and so I spend a huge amount of my spare time in the studio.

It's quite vain but I really just want to make music that people enjoy and to get some sort of recognition for that. It makes me happy when people big up my music and I feel like I've achieved something.

It's different to fame. I don't want to be globally recognised or anything like that, in fact quite the opposite. I just want to make music that people enjoy.

2oh1.. always on point

for me its all about the art - music, art, prose, poetry and whatever else i can see/hear that evokes emotion

i'm a strong believer that most people need an emotional outlet - for some this is a diary where the thoughts are in their head can be penned out, for others it can be a touch of painting etc

for me its always been either words or music - i make music for myself - i've had one release but apart from that the only people to hear my tunes are my mrs and mr brother, and thats because they ask

i also hardly ever finish tunes because emotionally i move on and then finishing the track becomes too administrative and i can't capture the vibe - recently i've revisited tunes from 2004 simply because i'm in the right mood

at the moment i've been re-jigging my whole music creation environment to enable more live work, so i can have me-myself-and-i jams and record the output on multiple audio channels so as to allow for editing, mixing etc when i've got my other hat on

i also consider myself fairly intelligent and i need an intellectual stimulant - this takes the form of the production & mix techniques - i scour the internet and read magazines and try techniques - 10 years later i still can't mix but thats primarily because i don't spend enough time on it and my mix environment is terrible - this doesn't bother me in the slightest and i'll still keep reading

in a sense its nice to not need commercial/peer group praise. it means the art can be pure, and if my hi-hats are deafening then its not really very important

Also in regards to the actual process of making music....

I've been making music as a hobby for 8 years and all of it is self taught. Over the years I've gone from Fruity to Reason to Logic and finally Cubase.

I don't read up on tips or try and emulate anything. I just get in the studio and start making music. For me the beat is the most important aspect and so I'll spend time on that first. Recently I have started making loads of different melodies, cycling through presets and twisting and editing them and I keep saving them so I'll have like hello1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.cpr all with the same beat but very different melodies.

I think I do this because once I have crafted a beat I really like I feel it's cheating to lay down any old crap on top. I feel like I have a responsibility to make the very best out of that tune. It's usually the last one that gets turned into the full tune too because i find something that is just so sick and then bam 30 minutes later i've got a tune i really really like.

Then later i'll check out all those other short snippets for something to inspire me on a new track though i usually end up deleting them. If they arent good enough for that track then why put them into another track?

Chunkie wrote:i also hardly ever finish tunes because emotionally i move on and then finishing the track becomes too administrative and i can't capture the vibe - recently i've revisited tunes from 2004 simply because i'm in the right mood

Yep true that. I've tonnes of unfinished snippets (see last post) but thats because i just dont feel them enough. The tracks i do finish tend to be completed within a couple of hours and after that it's just the final polish. The best tunes are the ones when all the elements just fall into place and bang it's like winning a mini lottery.

dis thread made me fink alot.
for some reason 2day, everything i listen 2 sounds shit.
i dont no wat it is, even when i hear people talk it pisses me off.
not jus dis thread done this, but it done alot towards me thinking about alota shit. alot of peaple say make drums ect when you have a "blok". so i opened a redrum, but stil no patern i made dun nefing 4 me, this is different 2 a blok, its almost like my expectations have become to high.
everything i pulled out of reason didnt seem uniqe, i reely wana make sumthin no1 has eva heard. mabie my heads jus tired or sumfin, but it dont feel like it. but i swear down, i wont stop untill i have acctualy made sumfin seariously discusting!
ino i went off the subject but it was partly dis thread dat lead 2 dis...
im gona turn my computa off, n cum bak 2 it later. i must merk

da posts on dis are acctualy ALOT, respect to every1 dat took time 2 put there point ov view up. i cant belive im ritin dis much, seariously, i hated it in skool ALOT, but 4 sum reason i havent even thaugt about it, dis must definatly be a passion ov mine.

Cheers for all these responses and thoughts! Inspiring.

Lots of good shit in here.

I'll read them all, I promise.

I'm just working now, so I have limited time.

PUPSTAR wrote:dis thread made me fink alot.
for some reason 2day, everything i listen 2 sounds shit.
i dont no wat it is, even when i hear people talk it pisses me off.
not jus dis thread done this, but it done alot towards me thinking about alota shit. alot of peaple say make drums ect when you have a "blok". so i opened a redrum, but stil no patern i made dun nefing 4 me, this is different 2 a blok, its almost like my expectations have become to high.
everything i pulled out of reason didnt seem uniqe, i reely wana make sumthin no1 has eva heard. mabie my heads jus tired or sumfin, but it dont feel like it. but i swear down, i wont stop untill i have acctualy made sumfin seariously discusting!
ino i went off the subject but it was partly dis thread dat lead 2 dis...
im gona turn my computa off, n cum bak 2 it later. i must merk

da posts on dis are acctualy ALOT, respect to every1 dat took time 2 put there point ov view up. i cant belive im ritin dis much, seariously, i hated it in skool ALOT, but 4 sum reason i havent even thaugt about it, dis must definatly be a passion ov mine.

while you're going through a 'block' period, in the meantime, research some spelling techniques because it tk m fkn ags t undsnd wt tht pst ws syn cs i swr dwn is mssn hlf th ltts tht r mnt t b in thr, mkn it prtty diffct t rd unlss ur brn intrprts txt lke a mble phne whch mst ppls dnt if u gt wht im syn, u prb do tho

sorry bruv, i try write it as good as i can.

ikeaboy wrote:Decklyn you eloquent bastard you nailed it on the head in so many ways.

Agreed.

Talking about 'art versus craft' is a misdirection imo, since the craft should support the art. And assuming that if someone want to know how something specific is done it's because they want to produce generic knockoffs of popular styles is a large overgeneralization.