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kidlogic wrote: Blackdown, can you point me to some good "funky" mixes that dont just sound like an old house mix with a few new tunes? I really want to give it a fair shot...

i'm not saying funky is sonically next level yet, personally i still prefer dubstep, desi and grime, but this set changed my view on it.

Blackdown wrote:

elgato wrote:whats your definition of it? obviously its not something easily expressed, but i'd be interested...

that there is a certain demographic of people (London, of mixed races, working class-centric) that generate very exciting UK music in fairly short cycles, that use a loosely similar set of reference points (UK, US and JA black music or music of black origin) using a loosely similar set of mediums (traditionally soundsystems and pirate radio, but online technology has evolved massively since the 'nuum theory was suggested).

hence:

rave/hardcore>jungle/d&b>UKG>dubstep/grime and now funky.

the patterns within each of these scenes are hard to ignore, which lends weight to the theory that they are all connected/related.

yeh that is a pretty strong definition. i guess what often seems to confuse / inflame the issue is the line (and the blurring of the line) which distinguishes a sociological theory from something which relates to musical value or musical 'qualities' (I'm primarily thinking of conceptual innovation)

i also think the name is inappropriate for the above definition. from what i understand, rave and hardcore were phenomenons which related to something much larger than the other names in that list, and certainly have had a wider impact and can be connected to a number of other musical memes. it seems that really any appropriate name for the phenomenon described should perhaps be more geographically specific?

Blackdown wrote:

kidlogic wrote: Blackdown, can you point me to some good "funky" mixes that dont just sound like an old house mix with a few new tunes? I really want to give it a fair shot...

i'm not saying funky is sonically next level yet, personally i still prefer dubstep, desi and grime, but this set changed my view on it.

Thats what I was hoping for, something to possibly change my opinion that its 'just house music'... Thanks.

So do you think elgato that the bristol massive shouldn't make dubstep but call it something else given their rich electronic and dub musical tradition ?

Maybe sheffield should make the same shit and call it something different also, given their history ?

epithet wrote:So do you think elgato that the bristol massive shouldn't make dubstep but call it something else given their rich electronic and dub musical tradition ?

Maybe sheffield should make the same shit and call it something different also, given their history ?

of course not! for example we could say that 'dubstep' is involved in a London continuum, but that doesn't mean that Bristol cannot be involved in what we call 'dubstep', and have an intimate connection to a London continuum. but it also has its own geneology and identity, similar to but distinct from London, and thats something to be proud of! thats what i mean above... such a key issue here is this confusion between descriptive ideas and normative ideas

I can see that going off in London circles as it reinforces a geographically inclined continua but can't see it going down to well in Bristol maybe. Seems they were never that keen on forming intimate relationships with London. Dunno eh ?

Any bristolians in the house ?

epithet wrote:I can see that going off in London circles as it reinforces a geographically inclined continua but can't see it going down to well in Bristol maybe. Seems they were never that keen on forming intimate relationships with London. Dunno eh ?

Any bristolians in the house ?

well, more or less me. not originally but its probably as much a home to me as anywhere

but thats more or less irrelevent. the point im making is - for me, continua do not equal value - it doesn't matter if a continua is geographically inclined - they are descriptive sociological theories about music - they are not about the value of music

but actually, on second reading, i guess your issue is about the value of places?

More about tribalism, re-territorialisation and re-contexturalisation...uh oh

are you interested in expanding or should we leave it at that? thats not meant to be aggressive btw

elgato wrote: yeh that is a pretty strong definition. i guess what often seems to confuse / inflame the issue is the line (and the blurring of the line) which distinguishes a sociological theory from something which relates to musical value or musical 'qualities' (I'm primarily thinking of conceptual innovation)

That's what I said on the last page, but my Boomnoise Birthday hangover made it far less readable than it should have been.

Oh, please expand. This is without doubt the most interesting discussion I've read on these forums.

Not getting any sense of aggy at all elgato, so go right ahead if you want, but i can see this dialogue should it progress pissing more than few off given the nature of the denizens who inhabit said places especially should the dialogue regress. Don't want no fuss and no fight eh

ok cool, just wanted to make sure the last post didn't come across like an aggressive ultimatum

im interested in hearing more on what you meant by 'tribalism, re-territorialisation and re-contexturalisation'

filling in the gaps is it that you feel that there is a normative privileging of the 'hardcore' or 'london' continuum (i.e. a general undertone that the music produced by it is superior to that outside of it), and this fails to acknowledge the role of other cities / areas / memes in creating the music that constitute it? so Sheffield was involved in the beginning of this continuum, and key to many of the forms in the 'hardcore continuum', and you feel that this would be ignored if we were to call it a 'London' continuum.

my perspective is that these ideas are descriptive, rather than normative, so all that calling it a London continuum would do would be to frame the focus of the study more precisely. it would restrict other cities' roles to secondary within that study, but one could also conceptualise continuums with other focus - e.g. Bristol continuum, house continuum (would be pretty big though!), etc etc. - and this isn't a problem, because its nothing to do with what is good or bad

the problem comes, and i very much agree on this, where one continuum or theory or whatever comes to dominate popular discussion to the extent that it obscures the importance of other influences of whatever kind (e.g. cities), or most importantly, is spoken about and used in such a way that it carries an unspoken mark of musical value or superiority

or have i just put loads of words into your mouth? sorry if so

either way the words express my thoughts!

i would be interested to hear your thoughts on all this if you have the time Blackdown

doublepost

my feeling is that the nuum theory, as i outlined it upthread, works well in general terms.

but it shouldnt be overstretched for specifics and exceptions to try to say things are or aren't in the nuum or are or arent legitimate, because often things are greyer or more complicated (but have equal value). nor should it be used to try and predict future memories.

it has value in it's general context, but isnt the be all or end all for all examples, scenes and places...

seems otm to me

I think by defining the terms of reference it's possible to interpret what 'tribalism, reterritorialisation and recontextualisation' means without a treatise by yours truly

reterritorialization- 'Reterritorialization is when people within a place start to produce an aspect of popular culture themselves, doing so in the context of their local culture and making it their own. An example would be Indonesian Hip Hop. Although Hip Hop and rap grew out of the inner cities of New York and Los Angeles during the 1980s and 1990s, by the time it reached Indonesia through Europe and Central Asia, it had already lost some of its original characteristics. Imported Hip Hop diffused first to a small group of people in Indonesia; then, Indonesians began to create Hip Hop music. Although the music was Hip Hop, the local artists integrated their local culture with the practises of the “foreign” Hip Hop to create a hybrid that was no longer foreign.'

recontextualise - Re-contextualizing is essentially the same thing, the act of taking something out of its normal context and interpreting it within a differing cultural context then observing how the meaning changes.

tribalism - is the possession of a strong cultural or ethnic identity that separates oneself as a member of one group from the members of another. In a dubstep context it ensures strong musical traditions and heritage such as those of sheffield or bristol are fiercely upheld and not assimilated into the larger london tribe by means of local continua.

Dubstep in these cases, taken out of london and transferred to wherever loses it's geographically specific and cultural meaning but takes on new indigenous ones. When applied to the sound, some within london circles may not even observe it as dubstep and would be reluctant to call it that possibly causing subgenrefication to occur within the canon that may or may not be accepted.

always enjoy reading this

Blackdown wrote: rave/hardcore>jungle/d&b>UKG>dubstep/grime and now funky.

i'm not saying funky is sonically next level yet, personally i still prefer dubstep, desi and grime, but this set changed my view on it.

Ok so I downloaded the set and wish i never had. Sorry bro, but it's not next level anything, it's just shit mate and if anything it's a loop back in the 'nuum not a progression forward IMHO

In saying that, do you think the 'nuum will loop back on itself to the rave aspect again and become a cycle or continue on in linear fashion as a continuum suggests ?