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^^^


I think that about sums it up.

Basically, all you've been doing is compensating for a shitty system by adding mid range.

the way i see it, soundsystem music; both technically and ideally should mean that it's a rig big enough to deliver 1watt for 1db and can reproduce a low c note from a rhodes keyboard, clearly with definition.

mid range sub, or crossover's that are set to roll off low sub upwards into middle range sub, aren't doing the music justice.

i think thinking is just saying that there are more and more bar nights and smaller venues that don't put enough consideration into the sound, and just want to ram the place out without making sound priority #1.

i totally agree with him on that.

seckle wrote: i think thinking is just saying that there are more and more bar nights and smaller venues that don't put enough consideration into the sound, and just want to ram the place out without making sound priority #1.

i totally agree with him on that.

sure fair enough but to elude that producers have molded their sound to accomadate that is rediculous.


+++++++

on one hand people talk about looking outside the box and doing somethign different but then when it actually happens people question whether its trully dubstep or not.

now im not trying to say im really really doing anything differnet personally but if noone had ever tried to add different types of sound or influences from other genres (dnb being one of them as is the case for me) dubstep would sound so samey. how many verions of mud would we need? great tune, lovely sub bass, sweet simplicity, but a genre of nothing but that? i dont think it would have held my curiousity for this long,but realizing "theres no rule" and i could go anywhere with this sound i want ive continued to push it, but now people are trying to tell me why im making this kind of style or that, or that this style doesnt belong, etc its a bunch of bull shit and goes farther in diluting the sound than adding a couple saw wavs can ever do.

seckle wrote:the way i see it, soundsystem music; both technically and ideally should mean that it's a rig big enough to deliver 1watt for 1db and can reproduce a low c note from a rhodes keyboard, clearly with definition.

mid range sub, or crossover's that are set to roll off low sub upwards into middle range sub, aren't doing the music justice.

i think thinking is just saying that there are more and more bar nights and smaller venues that don't put enough consideration into the sound, and just want to ram the place out without making sound priority #1.

i totally agree with him on that.

surely throughout the history of 'pa's' and 'soundsystems' there have been problems w/ the artist playing a show not thinking the system was up to spec and being generally dissapointed in the sound system.

I know almost everyone i know has experienced this multiple times dj'ing out.. and this is basicly a fact of playing live music.. be it.. rock..rap.. jungle, house, dubstep.. etc etc.

i see where you are coming from.. in that in a perfect world we'd all have a massive rig at every show. But as i'm sure most of us know..its just not possible, and/or feasible in most situations.

also.. 1 watt per DB seems a little crazy.. maybe i misunderstood.. but if you wave a 2000 watt amp.. are you saying you should rock it out @ 2000 db?!?

tbh.. i really started this thread to hear peoples opinion on 'what dubstep sounded like' and why it 'shouldn't sound' certain ways.. I respect (but obviously won't agree with everyone's) opinions...

I guess my opinion is.. dubstep sounds like whatever the producer making it MAKES it sound like.... as previously stated.. if there were crazy rules in any kind of other music ever created like 'NO MIDRANGE'.. or "NO DOUBLE KICK DRUMS' or 'NO TOP END'... no music in history would have ever evolved. the idea to put a cap on a whole 'frequency range' in a genre of music seems really silly to me. (granted.. i obviously am biased because i DO use midrange in some of my productions). Still... This logic seems like a really odd and potentially crippling 'no no' for the genre.

but i guess.. lets let the discussion continue.

on a side note.. is it ok if it has midrange as long as its a housey/garagey type synth?

A lot of early dubstep does have a hefty amount of midrange, in fact i swear Stone Cold has a reecey sound in the breakdown, but it is a lot smoother than a lot of the midrange today.

But again, i haven't heard dubstep over any other systems other than Plastic People and Mass, so i have no idea how badly people are messing up the sound. Although if what looks like a relatively small rig in plastic people can produce such a good sound, why shouldn't other smaller places?

140(ish) bpm + serious bass = Dubstep

Does there have to be any more boundaries than that?

2sense wrote:
on a side note.. is it ok if it has midrange as long as its a housey/garagey type synth?

it's also ok if the midrange has a 1/16th lfo going through it

this is me riding the dubstep train

Signus wrote:140(ish) bpm + serious bass = Dubstep

Does there have to be any more boundaries than that?

actually the answer i was looking (hoping) for..


to each their own ya know.. not everyone is into every 'style' ya know..


btw.. claw.. gtfo..

2sense wrote:.

also.. 1 watt per DB seems a little crazy.. maybe i misunderstood.. but if you wave a 2000 watt amp.. are you saying you should rock it out @ 2000 db?!?

1watt = 1db is a concept developed and adapted by some of the biggest names in soundsystem design. we could be here for pages discussing it, but from the homework and conversations i've had, the basic idea is that it's delivering the full spectrum of sound, rather than a clipped spectrum of sound normally heard through cheaply made speaker setups that are more common in a bar for example. the key component of the idea is the klipschhorn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klipsch
the klipschorn has been used for over 30 years in some of the most famous clubs in the world. because it's such a clean delivery of sound, you don't need to have thousands and thousands of watts of amplifiers to drive it. it's a very very sensitive speaker, so 1 watt is delivering 1db out which is different from other speakers which don't deliver the watts accurately. this means that assuming you have enough klipschorns in a room, you wouldn't need nearly as much power to deliver the same punch, and alternatively, the room that you hear the music in becomes a speaker in itself. there's loads of other factors involved, like sound treatment of the room, and spacing of the speakers, but the general idea is that the sound source is accurately representing what you're sending through it at all volume levels. self powered speakers or systems made with cheap components can never deliver the same impact because they are limited or crossed over due to their design. you sacrifice sound for price, which is the problem discussed in this thread.

funktion one is another example of the 1watt = 1 db idea. if you've ever heard a funktion one soundsystem, you'd immediately hear the difference. it's like night and day.

Signus wrote:140(ish) bpm + serious bass = Dubstep

Does there have to be any more boundaries than that?

Oh you are so philosophical.

True though, couldnt give a shit about anything else, if it sounds good to me I'll play it/listen to it/enjoy it.

Big soundsystems DO help aswell...no doubt about that whatsoever.

i really do wish people cared more about sound systems in this country (in general)

claw wrote:

this is me riding the dubstep train

Cheers for that wikipedia link seckles! Not that I found out anything to do with this, but I always mean to read up a bit more on acoustics, and a good little click-browse around the right parts of the wiki and man can learn bare!

claw wrote:Needs moar reece and slowed down rap vox

Dr Zoidberg?

seckle wrote:

ThinKing wrote:As the music has spread, it has been played in far more clubs where promoters/clubowners are unable/unwilling to provide the sort of soundsytems which deliver a true physical bass experience.

so , so true.

if you think you can run this music on self powered speakers then you miss the point completely. this is soundsystem music. that means a truck full of speakers and amps, crossovers and box men. promoters need to understand this.....

nuff said..

seckle wrote:

2sense wrote:.

also.. 1 watt per DB seems a little crazy.. maybe i misunderstood.. but if you wave a 2000 watt amp.. are you saying you should rock it out @ 2000 db?!?

1watt = 1db is a concept developed and adapted by some of the biggest names in soundsystem design. we could be here for pages discussing it, but from the homework and conversations i've had, the basic idea is that it's delivering the full spectrum of sound, rather than a clipped spectrum of sound normally heard through cheaply made speaker setups that are more common in a bar for example. the key component of the idea is the klipschhorn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klipsch
the klipschorn has been used for over 30 years in some of the most famous clubs in the world. because it's such a clean delivery of sound, you don't need to have thousands and thousands of watts of amplifiers to drive it. it's a very very sensitive speaker, so 1 watt is delivering 1db out which is different from other speakers which don't deliver the watts accurately. this means that assuming you have enough klipschorns in a room, you wouldn't need nearly as much power to deliver the same punch, and alternatively, the room that you hear the music in becomes a speaker in itself. there's loads of other factors involved, like sound treatment of the room, and spacing of the speakers, but the general idea is that the sound source is accurately representing what you're sending through it at all volume levels. self powered speakers or systems made with cheap components can never deliver the same impact because they are limited or crossed over due to their design. you sacrifice sound for price, which is the problem discussed in this thread.

funktion one is another example of the 1watt = 1 db idea. if you've ever heard a funktion one soundsystem, you'd immediately hear the difference. it's like night and day.

That made me laugh out loud, the human threshold of pain with regards to hearing is around 140 dB, the decibel is a logarithmic scale so how it would be possible for a human to stand in the proximity of a sound level of 2000 dB is beyond me, god im such an acoustics geek

Press wrote:

ThinKing wrote:part of the reason it's crept into dubstep...

Music evolves, midrange in dubstep is simply a fact of life, but it is definitely a mutation which greatly dilutes one of the original ideals behind the music.

i gotta disagree with most of that. sorry. im not gonna pick through it all but theres a shit load of crap in that post. how extremely boring would the genre be if every fucking tune was purley sub bass/808's. midrange didnt come into the genre as some answer to small sound systems and sure as hell isnt diluting anything. i just cant buy this asesment at all.

note why I said "part of the reason". I'm not slating this/that type of music or saying what people can/can't do with their tunes - I'm not so precious to feel protective over 'my' music or anything so bloody-minded.

Many people introduced/appreciate mids in dubstep purely since they appreciate the aesthetic of that sound - Distance for one was doing it before most other people, for example. I do think, however, that the high-energy midrange wobble that's crept into dubstep is partly an artefact of DJs wanting to produce a certain effect (i.e. people dancing) on lesser soundsystems.

Obviously, the copycat theme of all modern emerging dance music genres cannot be underestimated either - tunes like Rubber Chicken or Cockney Thug appear, then everyone wants to produce the same effect so draws for the same sound. Innovator vs Imitator.


btw I thought the input:output (wattage:dB) scale in respect of soundsystems is exponential - hence why Dillinja wasted his time building a 90kW rig when one half the wattage would have been nearly as loud.

jackquinox wrote:That made me laugh out loud, the human threshold of pain with regards to hearing is around 140 dB, the decibel is a logarithmic scale so how it would be possible for a human to stand in the proximity of a sound level of 2000 dB is beyond me, god im such an acoustics geek

I'm guessing 1W=1dB means something other than 2000W = 2000dB. Because yeah, that would be silly, if you took 0dB as the threshhold of human hearing (ie the quietest noise that human ears can pick up) 2000dB would be hundreds of times louder than the loudest sound that can pass through air without distorting. Isn't dB a relative scale anyway, though? So I'm guessing it means something more like 2000W = 0dB, 1999W = -1dB etc.

Btw, I think the reason midrangey dubstep gets a lot of people's backs up is that it's used as a shorthand for 'ploddy aggressive midrangey dubstep', and a lot of dubsteppers used to like drum and bass but got the arse when a lot of it turned into nu-metally midrange aggro and got into dubstep because it reminded them of drum and bass before it went shit (from their point of view). So it's not really surprising that they get the arse when nu-metally midrange aggro starts coming into dubstep too.

I kind of feel that way too on some level, but rationally I know that dubstep's a broad enough church that there's room for everyone, people can produce and listed to what they like and there'll still be enough good stuff for me.

Slothrop wrote:

jackquinox wrote:That made me laugh out loud, the human threshold of pain with regards to hearing is around 140 dB, the decibel is a logarithmic scale so how it would be possible for a human to stand in the proximity of a sound level of 2000 dB is beyond me, god im such an acoustics geek

I'm guessing 1W=1dB means something other than 2000W = 2000dB. Because yeah, that would be silly, if you took 0dB as the threshhold of human hearing (ie the quietest noise that human ears can pick up) 2000dB would be hundreds of times louder than the loudest sound that can pass through air without distorting. Isn't dB a relative scale anyway, though? So I'm guessing it means something more like 2000W = 0dB, 1999W = -1dB etc.

Btw, I think the reason midrangey dubstep gets a lot of people's backs up is that it's used as a shorthand for 'ploddy aggressive midrangey dubstep', and a lot of dubsteppers used to like drum and bass but got the arse when a lot of it turned into nu-metally midrange aggro and got into dubstep because it reminded them of drum and bass before it went shit (from their point of view). So it's not really surprising that they get the arse when nu-metally midrange aggro starts coming into dubstep too.

I kind of feel that way too on some level, but rationally I know that dubstep's a broad enough church that there's room for everyone, people can produce and listed to what they like and there'll still be enough good stuff for me.

Well if silence was considered to be 0dB then 10dB is 10 times more powerful but 20dB is 100 times and 30dB is 1000 times more powerful etc etc we do most of our calcualtions in dBA though as my job is about human perception of hearing so we work on an A weighted scale. My boss said an intersting thing the other day, as humans if you where to compare our sense of hearing to a different scale of perception its like being able to judge the difference in weight of an ant and an elephant and every mass in between.

I should mention i have no idea about sound systems i just deal with architectural acoustics so i am enjoying reading about the Klipsch audio technologies, i just found it funny imagining the potential mess (and size)of a sound system capable of kicking out that level of noise.