Dubstepforum.com

djgyn wrote:

mucsavage wrote:if there are going to be no represses (cause of a lost master or something, or cause its just not planned) then the original artist has stopped making most of the money out.

Nail meets head. This is exactly the problem.

Well actually, in this particular case (or at least the case that sparked this debate: DMZ002) that isn't a problem at all. It's up on Bleep for the extremely resonable rate of £2.99. About £76 cheaper than someone just dropped on the vinyl. There's no reason why the first few DMZs shouldn't keep making the artists money just because there's not gonna be a repress. Seems to me that Bleep and the like is a pretty good compromise really. The collectors can get their white-label limited run pressings or whatever, and any latecomers can still get the tunes.

Of course, some labels havn't quite got their act together yet on the download front, whether through loyalty to the long dead (Tempa and dubplate.net apparently) or plain lazyness I guess.

Also, I must admit I quite like the nagging worry that if I don't buy a record now, it may sell out and I'll never get it. It keeps me on my toes. My bank balance is less impressed, but that's life.

4linehaiku wrote:

djgyn wrote:

mucsavage wrote:if there are going to be no represses (cause of a lost master or something, or cause its just not planned) then the original artist has stopped making most of the money out.

Nail meets head. This is exactly the problem.

Well actually, in this particular case (or at least the case that sparked this debate: DMZ002) that isn't a problem at all. It's up on Bleep for the extremely resonable rate of £2.99. About £76 cheaper than someone just dropped on the vinyl. There's no reason why the first few DMZs shouldn't keep making the artists money just because there's not gonna be a repress. Seems to me that Bleep and the like is a pretty good compromise really. The collectors can get their white-label limited run pressings or whatever, and any latecomers can still get the tunes.

While I'm a fan of sanctioned digital downloads, not everyone here is. So if there are people who would buy the vinyl but would not buy an MP3 the current situation is unsatisfactory. After all, why else would we be having this discussion if this wasn't the case?

And though I'm unclear about how this works at the indie dubstep labels, artists tend to get a lower royalty rate for MP3 downloads as opposed to vinyl or CD sales. While that might not mean something for a label like DMZ, run by the artists themselves, it certainly might be significant for, say, Hotflush or Boka recording acts.

4linehaiku wrote:Seems to me that Bleep and the like is a pretty good compromise really. The collectors can get their white-label limited run pressings or whatever, and any latecomers can still get the tunes.

True, but why should the latecomers have to make do with an invisible product? I agree that MP3s can be a good and easy way of keeping a back catalogue available (especially if the tracks AREN'T in demand), but an MP3 is a vastly inferior product than a record.

If represses were printed with a slightly different label, maybe with 'second pressing', 'third pressing' etc on them, would that keep the collectors reasonably satisfied? I couldn't care less what pressing of a tune I got, but if collectors wanted to pass the first batch around for silly money, they can still do so.

djgyn wrote:
And though I'm unclear about how this works at the indie dubstep labels, artists tend to get a lower royalty rate for MP3 downloads as opposed to vinyl or CD sales. While that might not mean something for a label like DMZ, run by the artists themselves, it certainly might be significant for, say, Hotflush or Boka recording acts.

i can't get real long winded since i am at work, but i do want to point out the obvious difference:

there is no overhead with mp3. so regardless of smaller cut, the overhead is less, so the profit margin is bound to be better, once you take pressing and shipping costs into account.

unless you have a P&D, you (the label) are footing those bills. mp3 is just an easier way to get the tunes in people's hands <i>along with</i> the vinyl, and maybe make a bit of extra profit (or just break even, depending on record sales).

i think it's nice for folks who are not DJs (remember them?) to be able to access the music as well. just an added thought to remember that there is a world OUTSIDE of the DJs, and that they might dig music too. and frankly, THEY ARE A BIGGER SECTION OF PEOPLE, in case anyone forgot.

and as far as the artist getting a lesser share from mp3s, i am not sure how the dubstep world works, but most of the producers i know usually sell tracks outright to the label, and any royalties they are making are from licensing of the songs...

sapphic_beats wrote:i think it's nice for folks who are not DJs (remember them?) to be able to access the music as well. just an added thought to remember that there is a world OUTSIDE of the DJs, and that they might dig music too. and frankly, THEY ARE A BIGGER SECTION OF PEOPLE, in case anyone forgot.

In case you didn't read the paragraph of mine you didn't quote, you might have noticed that I am "a fan of sanctioned digital downloads." I eagerly support the sites selling legal MP3s with my hard earned money. At present, I don't DJ dubstep... I'm just a fan.

Ah this old chestnut again! Comparing the advantages of mp3's compared to vinyl (in cost blah blah etc) is like comparing cardboard shoes to leather boots - it's totally pointless, and seems to be championed by those that find it more difficult to get vinyl in the first place (or it's prohibitively expensive)

Which is fair play, but don't hark on about it being 'such a brilliant advantageous medium compared to vinyl', because it ain't. It's a worthless and throwaway medium - with no intrinsic value to anybody but the purchaser. And being a collector of music, I don't place any value on the mp3's I've bought (which isn't many, as I realised I preferred to own the vinyl).

You buy an mp3; you can't 'sell it on' (not that your supposed to resell vinyl, but people do, and it can be a sound investment), there's no tactile feel that people love - mp3's are great for 'throwaway consumption' purposes for bunging on your iPod or playing on your laptop, but I think the general public are perhaps realising they want to actually own something tangible as well / instead (it's also fashionably retro to all demographics - from teenagers in the high street to audiophiles to next Joe Public - not just DJ's at all as Sapphic Beats wrongly said) - and this transcends musical genre, right through to the top rank of the music industry, as they slowly catch up on the trend towards vinyl albums and singles again. I'd never buy a CD single, but I'd def buy a 7" single if I liked a track (or 12" obviously) - this is something tangible that's extremely collectable. Mp3 downloads are only going to grow as a major alternative to purchasing music on tangible media, but it ain't about to replace it any time soon.

The recent article posted here proves that very point (Business Weekly or something). It stated vinyl sales of chart music now outstrip CD sales - and this is in the high street chains, not specialist outlets selling marginal / underground music. Can only be a good thing, and combats piracy in a positive way (people want to own the vinyl not just rip the cd and take it back to the shop).

And as for lower overheads for mp3 downloads, even big major label artists aren't making megabucks from selling mp3s, so a small label is going to make peanuts from it - the real money has and always will be from doing gigs.

Aaaand, going back to the thread topic (which it's meandered from), there's nothing wrong with a repress if the demand is there, its the nature of the business.

Whenever people start going on about collecting and spending big money on vinyl I picture a hall 40 years from now and crusty old geezers wearing hoodies and beanies peering into a magnifying glass measuring a hairline crack in an old 12".

AKA stamp collectors of the future.

But whatever makes you happy eh?

KION wrote:And as for lower overheads for mp3 downloads, even big major label artists aren't making megabucks from selling mp3s, so a small label is going to make peanuts from it - the real money has and always will be from doing gigs.

There was a thread recently about this on DOA, some guy said he worked for an indie label with annual revenue of about 5 mill, and he said a third of that came from mp3 downloads - the overwhelming majority via iTunes. He said you can make money with mp3s, but its all about getting the marketing right.

Tho with US$5 mill turnover I imagine that label is orders of magnitude larger than any dubstep label.

Be interesting to see the sales figures for the Burial album a year from now... that has such big crossover potential... I've seen a bunch of discussions around the web and pretty much everyone into electronic music is giving it props.

It has to be all about the boys making money.

If DMZ think they can make some money from a re-press (and they have to be sure otherwise it makes no sense), then go for it.

I have every DMZ pressed but would not be pissed off if they re-pressed.

They are doing the hard work making the music, not me buying it.

Thanks to DMZ and everyone else making the scene.

bleep wrote:Whenever people start going on about collecting and spending big money on vinyl I picture a hall 40 years from now and crusty old geezers wearing hoodies and beanies peering into a magnifying glass measuring a hairline crack in an old 12".

AKA stamp collectors of the future.

But whatever makes you happy eh?

It happens now - they're called record fairs but you won't get a hall 40 years from now with a load of old geezers comparing file sizes.

KION wrote:It happens now - they're called record fairs but you won't get a hall 40 years from now with a load of old geezers comparing file sizes.

because they'll be living in their parents basement chatting about it online

^^

Too long to read all these posts but:

I'll sell you a white label copy of DMZ002 for $150 if you want?

Any takers?

Come on...




Jokes - it mine I tell you, all MINE!!

Bwahahahaa

PS - did it really come out 2 years ago!? Fast 2 years...

I have a record collection because I love the records (the music contained upon) I have bought.. it is the only reason to buy any piece of music. I whole heartedly agree with repressing despite the fact that alot of records i own first presses of being repressed recently resulted in the resale value dropping, i dont care because I was never going to sell them anyway! so their market value is irrelevant to me. i hope they repress the early dmz stuff it can only be good for dmz and thats the most important thing.. not what someone who owns a copy of the original press thinks. We have all benifitted from represses at one time or another and im sure have also seen records you own plumit in value once the repress drops but the most important thing is that as many people as possible own a copy of the music they love on the format of their choice, mp3's might be fine for some but i agree with kion i also have no love for the mp3 format or cds because they are, for me completely disposable throw away formats.

KION wrote:...but I think the general public are perhaps realising they want to actually own something tangible as well / instead (it's also fashionably retro to all demographics - from teenagers in the high street to audiophiles to next Joe Public - not just DJ's at all as Sapphic Beats wrongly said) - and this transcends musical genre, right through to the top rank of the music industry, as they slowly catch up on the trend towards vinyl albums and singles again...

The recent article posted here proves that very point (Business Weekly or something). It stated vinyl sales of chart music now outstrip CD sales - and this is in the high street chains, not specialist outlets selling marginal / underground music.

This is exactly what I was thinking the other day. MP3s are 'worthless', in that they don't really exist apart from being zeros and ones; in buying an MP3 you're buying the rights to own the music, but not really buying a product. In this sense, vinyl sales (and CD sales too) should only increase, because as Kion says, people are going to get sick of paying for data and will want something to show for their money.

I've only been DJing around a year now and have bought a fair amount of records. I would hate it if I couldn't get hold of a tune on vinyl because the price had been jacked to ridiculous amounts. I am currently saving for some cd decks so I can play mates tunes without them getting pressed and so I can purchase either cds or mp3s for cheaper than vinyl. I will always buy vinyl coz I love how real and raw it is, especially when I'm spinning Reggae but when I go to Uni I am pretty sure I wont have the cash to be shelling out for vinyl all the time. Represses are a great idea coz it means guys like me who weren't around the 1st time can still get hold of great tunes. A lot of people tell me vinyl is slowly dying out but as long as I own a pair of decks I'm gonna keep on buying it. I don't know much about rare records I just enjoy playing the tunes I love. I'm not bothered how much they are worth it's just great to find new music and show it to your mates.

I don't DJ (well very occassionally, usually very badly), but I want those tunes on vinyl. Never really got into cd's and certainly can't think of myself ever buying mp3's.

If it's a repress so be it, the collector's market isn't giving anything back to the makers of the music, and it's doubtful that someone could exist off the meagre profits involved in a 1500 press of a new tune every few months, so if the demands there it benefits the fans and the producers.

Collectors getting precious about their rare copies aren't doing anybody any favours. Seems like Tempa keep most of their back catalogue available and fair play to them for that, plenty of old tunes I'd like to have, but

a/ don't have the money
b/ refuse to pay such stupid prices

If the masters are still available, there's always the option to look into getting them repressed independently if the original label and producers don't mind of course.

I really don't like the idea of something that means so much to so many people being reduced to someone checking e-bay to check how well their "little investments" doing.

Are they really worth that much?! Madness....

I've got the lot, but I'd be very happy if they got repressed. It almost saddens me that so many of what I think are classic dubstep tracks were released in such short runs to such a small number of buyers. That stuff totally blew me sideways - i wanted everyone to know about it, so it's a shame that people who wanna play the tune can't get hold of em. And I want to play my records, not put them in a fucking cabinet cos they're too valuable to replace and I can't risk wearing them out....

I just turned the weight down on my decks to make sure my records don't wear out. I will live with jumping needles, and sacrifice the option of scratching (I was shit anyway), but I will still play horror show when I'm 64.

djgyn wrote:

sapphic_beats wrote:i think it's nice for folks who are not DJs (remember them?) to be able to access the music as well. just an added thought to remember that there is a world OUTSIDE of the DJs, and that they might dig music too. and frankly, THEY ARE A BIGGER SECTION OF PEOPLE, in case anyone forgot.

In case you didn't read the paragraph of mine you didn't quote, you might have noticed that I am "a fan of sanctioned digital downloads." I eagerly support the sites selling legal MP3s with my hard earned money. At present, I don't DJ dubstep... I'm just a fan.

i didn't mean to come across as if i was contesting your point. just adding more thoughts to the mix really. no worries?

KION wrote:Ah this old chestnut again! Comparing the advantages of mp3's compared to vinyl (in cost blah blah etc) is like comparing cardboard shoes to leather boots - it's totally pointless, and seems to be championed by those that find it more difficult to get vinyl in the first place (or it's prohibitively expensive)

Which is fair play, but don't hark on about it being 'such a brilliant advantageous medium compared to vinyl', because it ain't. It's a worthless and throwaway medium - with no intrinsic value to anybody but the purchaser. And being a collector of music, I don't place any value on the mp3's I've bought (which isn't many, as I realised I preferred to own the vinyl).

You buy an mp3; you can't 'sell it on' (not that your supposed to resell vinyl, but people do, and it can be a sound investment), there's no tactile feel that people love - mp3's are great for 'throwaway consumption' purposes for bunging on your iPod or playing on your laptop, but I think the general public are perhaps realising they want to actually own something tangible as well / instead (it's also fashionably retro to all demographics - from teenagers in the high street to audiophiles to next Joe Public - not just DJ's at all as Sapphic Beats wrongly said) - and this transcends musical genre, right through to the top rank of the music industry, as they slowly catch up on the trend towards vinyl albums and singles again. I'd never buy a CD single, but I'd def buy a 7" single if I liked a track (or 12" obviously) - this is something tangible that's extremely collectable. Mp3 downloads are only going to grow as a major alternative to purchasing music on tangible media, but it ain't about to replace it any time soon.

The recent article posted here proves that very point (Business Weekly or something). It stated vinyl sales of chart music now outstrip CD sales - and this is in the high street chains, not specialist outlets selling marginal / underground music. Can only be a good thing, and combats piracy in a positive way (people want to own the vinyl not just rip the cd and take it back to the shop).

And as for lower overheads for mp3 downloads, even big major label artists aren't making megabucks from selling mp3s, so a small label is going to make peanuts from it - the real money has and always will be from doing gigs.

Aaaand, going back to the thread topic (which it's meandered from), there's nothing wrong with a repress if the demand is there, its the nature of the business.

a lot of good points as well. people are always gonna want the whole package if they can get it.

but to add to your point, mp3s do give people the opportunity to hear new music without spending a mint, which brings more people TO the live gigs. the way i figure it, they're both just different angles to bring similar results.

but there i go derailing the thread.

on topic: i had a rare techno double pack that was stolen years ago, and without represses, i would still be in mourning... ;p