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things that make you go

Jolly Wailer wrote: I can't tell you why its multiples of 4. It just is. I suspect the origins are pretty deep.

Only read a book or two on it, but probably something to do with Fibonacci numbers and the Golden Ratio. There could be other number theories to explain it too. Some people write music and their song structures entirely based on these theories.

Oh yeah...the Golden Ratio is in the Amen break too.

I have to say I find the idea of dubstep producers who don't like making records that work for DJs a bit weird. I mean, history, people! If it was good enough for King Tubby, I reckon it should be good enough for you, yeah?

There are load of good dubstep DJ's. FACT

Dubstep should have a defined structure so it can be played in a set. Whoever in this thread thinks they're a bit of a rebel by saying go against the system when making dubstep, you're not you're just an idiot. Structure does not limit creativity (in this example), you can do anything you want with the sound, style, layout etc. As long as it has an intro and an outro, and changes happen in 4's.

FSTZ wrote:it'd be different if these get edited and compiled into one thread

Hum... That's pretty much the idea actually... Have you missed that one?
It's been divided into several threads for clarity's sake and hopefully the main thread's going to be stickied someday, but basicly it's just an improved version of v1. And I find most threads (ok not mines ) highly relevant.
Tbh I also didn't think the song structure thread was necessary but it is for some people and if somebody's doing it, I don't see the problem.

Rendr wrote:There are load of good dubstep DJ's. FACT

Sure. They're mostly french tho.

my personal views on nonstandard intro lengths aside (99% are utterly pointless and serve only to demonstrate the producer's high self-regard, 1% add to the tune), i would have to say that a 64 bar intro is extremely long, and very rarely heard. 48 bars is also rather long, but such an epic intro can be made to work (see Reso's remix of Take Me by Dubchild)

and 128 bars for a first/2nd drop? that's prog house territory - you'd end up with a 9 minute tune!

64 bars is much more common in dubstep.

Structure implies convention. Something people just 'get', possibly unthinkingly, but some consensus was arrived at that structures get used. you will have a harder time arguing for there to be 'no structure' when its obvious that the structures are useful to practically everyone. There is a reason that 16 bars sounds like a self-resolving phrase length and 13 bars doesn't, just like there is a reason why most people can't dance to free jazz. If people realize that there is some predictability going on with a beat it will compel them to dance to it because they know they won't be left hanging out to dry by music that falls apart rhymically/structurally. The patterns of body movement have their correlate in the patterns of music. Rhythm, cycles and patterns are the structures that are molded out from chaos, and have something to do with music's usefulness as a cultural tool.

I can't tell you why its multiples of 4. It just is.

I agree with this by and large, although I think you're using rather large brush strokes here!

Lots of music ventures away from 4's and 16's, yet still remains rhythmically predictable and easy to dance to - the best example IMO is Outkast - Hey Ya. The verse is a looped phrase of 6 and a half bars! It's still catchy and danceable though.

DJ Shadow uses 5/4 and 7/4 quite a lot, and Soundgarden's 'The Day I Tried To Live' alternates a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 7/8 - although I had never noticed it until someone pointed it out to me, despite having heard it a million times.

then you've got 12-bar blues, the waltz, stuff in 6/8 (annoyingly, the only 6/8 tune that springs to mind is riverdance )... it's quite an interesting and fun thing to look into

Daft tnuc wrote:

FSTZ wrote:it'd be different if these get edited and compiled into one thread

Hum... That's pretty much the idea actually... Have you missed that one?
It's been divided into several threads for clarity's sake and hopefully the main thread's going to be stickied someday, but basicly it's just an improved version of v1. And I find most threads (ok not mines ) highly relevant.
Tbh I also didn't think the song structure thread was necessary but it is for some people and if somebody's doing it, I don't see the problem.

ok


I'll shut my trap then



I would however like to point out the irony in writing a production bible then telling people to deviate from what people tell them is the rule (see first post in thread)

FSTZ wrote:

Daft tnuc wrote:

FSTZ wrote:it'd be different if these get edited and compiled into one thread

Hum... That's pretty much the idea actually... Have you missed that one?
It's been divided into several threads for clarity's sake and hopefully the main thread's going to be stickied someday, but basicly it's just an improved version of v1. And I find most threads (ok not mines ) highly relevant.
Tbh I also didn't think the song structure thread was necessary but it is for some people and if somebody's doing it, I don't see the problem.

ok


I'll shut my trap then



I would however like to point out the irony in writing a production bible then telling people to deviate from what people tell them is the rule (see first post in thread)

i think the whole idea behind the "bible" is to serve as a place for the beginners to look instead of clustering up the board with a million threads asking the same questions over and over
prolly would benefit being a wiki though

Lets not forget the effect random change ups and breakdowns can have on the dance. People sorta like to be able to predict when the drops and changes are coming...that's sorta the whole point IMO.

I can remember having quite a few ametuer DnB tracks that sounded great but I wouldn't play them because they would totally put people off at parties.. I <3 structure. To each their own I guess.

The topic has struck quite a nerve with some worthy input...probably more useful than the original Production bible article so i've edited the thread accordingly

you should have left your original post in as well

Deadly Habit wrote:you should have left your original post in as well

reading it back as a production article after all the input from other users made me think it's probably best as a discussion on the subject than to have any formula as a guide,

receipe for instant success:

32 bar intro with no sub. 1 bar break (this is where you put your backwards cymbal/blippity-bleeps/questionably-chosen movie sample). drop. after that, go crazy!

i'm all for experimentation but tunes for the dancefloor require a certain bit of structure. the shit that's really exciting and that gets heard-- ie, flylo--push the boundaries of simple song structure and strike a wicked balance between artistic and playable. as much as I like greek music in 17/8, i'm not gonna be drawing for those tunes if i can't mix 'em.

think of all the great, boundary-shattering producers out there right now in dubstep (off the top of my head? everyone on MAH's bristol show last nite). every one of 'em nails wicked tunes that are nice and mixable.

saying that you can't make a creative tune w/ an intro that's around 45 seconds long and in 4/4 is just being lazy. there's a space for everything but if you want DJ's to draw for your tunes, make 'em mixable.

I think Goldie said that what gets interesting is making stuff that's musical and mixable.

Also I think there's a difference between writing for DJs and for the dancefloor and writing for really crap DJs and lowest common denominator dancefloors. I don't really care about making a record so formulaic that DJ Steve can mix it without bothering to listen to it first and the audience of saturday night beer boys won't be confused or threatened, but I would aspire to write tunes that Kode or Chefal or someone could draw for and mess with a FWD crowd...

Still some way off atm though.

wah gwan, bredrin'? all uh dis descussions 'bout ow ah create dubstep music di best way, but what aboot originality, bredrin'? dubstep no 'as a set formula or structure. dis be di reezan ah make dubstep dark en mysterious. 'eer be somethin fi dem ah pick apart wit all uh dis critical analysis: try ah fi make a dubstep drumline, like 32 or 64 bars, in seven-eight time an make it ah sound reel-reel rood, ya 'urd?

Original Rood Bwoy Bomshotta' Numba' Wan-

Deady Dready

Its all about the intro length imo. If the intro has a common length like 16/32/48 bars its easily mixable. I like to start mixing tunes from the first sound on, have the mix on my headphones and then decide when to fade it in for the audience (usually smoothly during the intro or cutting at the first breakdown). If the intro starts in the middle of a bar it regulary fucks me up, because its not in line with the tune already spinning. Theres some nice tunes i just dont play out because of that, because i cant be bothered to work out a special mix for all of them. I do it for some all time favs, but most of the highly irregular stuff just gathers dust here...

If you are making tunes for the club then it's important to make your tunes DJ friendly because isn't that what it's all about?

Any tune that doesn't have a beat at the beginning or some kind of marker at least to allow it to be mixed is a complete waste of time...

I don't mind extra long intros because I love a nice long mix anyway but don't get too carried away.

And don't fuck around with dumb 13 bar intros or some off-key shit like that. Keep it in 8's if you ask me.

dub structure generally consists of:

intro - 4/8/16/32 bars or mor if u like but be careful (u dont wont it 2 get tedious) this can include a drop 2 enter the next phrase with or not depending on the feel of the tune

main phrase - 16/32/64 bars generally the main body of ur tune - generally wot wud b played by a DJ at a club. this may consist of a 16 bar phrase that loops 2 - 4 times with variations it may b a big build up thats all up 2 u

break - 8/16/32 bars (32 is kinda pushin it but its plausable) this is ur break between ur main phrases and generally cuts alot of ur tune like sub etc - possibly ambient wave between 2 rude bass tunes for e.g but again its wot u use that makes ur tune so its ur call. the break will normally cut completely out of a tune and then re-build itself for a drop mayb with a sample right at the end before the transition 2 sub + wobble

Main phrase 2 - 16/32/64 bars this is generally a big sonic assault of ur main phrase wer everythin will hit together an play thru again thru mayb 1/2 ur main phrase mayb all mayb twice who knows?

outro - this is not strictly needed and isnt always you cud go 4 the old fade out aftr ur main phrase or it could b a 4/8/16 bar finish 2 bring everythin back to its calmer mor tranquil state mayb a repeat of the break depending on how complex u wont ur track

2bh with u guys that is basically the main structure of dubstep similar 2 drum&bass. it reali doesnt matter at the end of the day theyr your tunes u are writing so go mental if u wont but if it doent make sense musically generally it wont b very popular amongst peers so id suggest mayb conforming 2 a reliable musc structure and concentrate on the music and effects, the variation, all of the other elements of your tune rather than persuading ppl 2 use 13 bar intros or 19/16 time signature etc.

this is, however vague, probably the most commen form of music structure therefore you will keep u, the dancefloor and the DJ happy an we can all concentrate on gettin lean rather than dancin outta time eh?