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ableton's got some serious strengths-- audio warping, super-user-friendly workflow, awesome midi mapping-- but i'm not nuts about it in terms of old-school engineering workflow.

it does, however, rewire fantastically. i use it wired to logic a bunch for remixes.

XI and Secret Agent Gel use it pretty much exclusively and get jawdropping results.

it's never about the DAW and always about the user. PHOTEK USED AN ALESIS SAMPLER-- repeat that to yourself 500 times a night.

I find sequencers in general inferior to trackers, so in my biased opinion, sure it is, but out of all sequencers, it's probably the best I've used. I hate its own softsynths and drums, but it's not like I've ever liked a non-VST softsynth or drum so it doesn't matter.

I'm a fiend for Renoise and I use that with samples, Absynth and Massive (I still suck at synthesizing my own shit) and I'm slowly getting into Reaktor (I suck at it), but for live performances, I think I'll definitely hit up Live. The interface is too good to pass up.

But I'll be a follower and just say, yes, it depends on what you're comfortable with. There are still people who frown upon trackers and consider them toys, fair enough.

TeReKeTe wrote: it's never about the DAW and always about the user. PHOTEK USED AN ALESIS SAMPLER-- repeat that to yourself 500 times a night.

TRUTH.

TeReKeTe wrote:it's never about the DAW and always about the user.

Words of wisdom. For the n-th time!

Stick to what makes the creative process easier for you, AND keeps things entertaining.

Ableton is fantastic, im a massive fan.

The effect's are fantastic and for sampling and time stretching it has no rival.

It is also so quick and easy to work with and just get ideas down.

(Its also the future of djing.... specialy as they have teamed up with serato.. trust me... vinyl wont stay in dubstep long.)

Still tho... I always find I run it as a slave to Logic....

I just find the Audio and Midi editing are nowhere even close to Logic and the plug's and effect's in Logic are top.

They both complement each other perfectly in my opinion but if I had to choose one, it's got to be Logic for the power. But if you have the money then the ableton suite will be a top buy.

Dubstepz

I can't believe these type of threads still exist on forums. Always some debate about whether this software is better than that software. For awhile, Fruity Loops used to be the software of choice for constant slagging... except it's been a good 8+ years, and there are still people making incredible tunes using it... so I guess people finally started easing up on it. Now it looks like it is Ableton's turn to fend off unsubstantiated attacks. Just silly.

<sarcasm>

Ableton sucks.

That's why I use it all the time.

it's HORRIBLE

All the tunes I've made have been done mostly in ableton. And they really suck.

</sarcasm>

<zen>

The truth is, it doesn't matter what you use. If you take the time to learn it inside and out, it will become a part of you.

</zen>

zeno wrote:
<zen>

The truth is, it doesn't matter what you use. If you take the time to learn it inside and out, it will become a part of you.

</zen>

Damn straight.

I'd point out to everyone still confused about software: Imagine you are a writer, does it make you write better literature if you use one typewriter or another, write books by hand or with microsoft word?

Brisance wrote:I'd point out to everyone still confused about software: Imagine you are a writer, does it make you write better literature if you use one typewriter or another, write books by hand or with microsoft word?

Naaaa I don't agree with this at all.

I can do so much more with Logic than I can with Ableton, if only because of the range of instruments and effect's.

I have not used reason for about 6 years but i can tell you for a fact that Logic does a load that it doesn't.

It is all about learning how to use thing's properly.

But I can do a shit load more learning a Virus TI inside out over something like the ES1.

Ableton does it all but Logic does more.

Ableton does do bit's that Logic can't and is fantastic at what it does.

i think he means you can get good results out of any of the software mentioned here instead of there being on be-all-end-all piece of kit.


whether they'll be the same results or not is a completely different issue.

Dance E-Jay is very much underated imho

dubstepz wrote: But I can do a shit load more learning a Virus TI inside out over something like the ES1.

Going back to that....

Getting a Virus Ti because you think it will make your music on a diff level is not true, in a majority of circumstances..

Why?

Because bare people will just flick through preset's and turn a few knob's occasionally.

It's all about learning about synthesis on the ES1 (or similar) and then progressively working up so you get the most out of what you have.

You will see what you need and buy it. Not because you think it will make you a top producer but because you know the capabilities it has that is currently lacking in your setup. This is why something like reason or fruity is so good for beginners caus it teaches you all the basic's if you bother to learn them.

The fact that your asking if something like ableton is ''inferior'' only suggests that you don't understand how sequencer's work and the advantages it may have over DAW's.

And wanting to move to a ''pro'' package means nothing unless you know specifically what it does you cant do now.

I would READ THE FUCKING MANUAL of everything you buy.. it's more than an installation guide.

i would even read the manual before buying it to see what it can do and if it's worth getting. Some manual's have great synthesis tutorials built in (Waldorf Blofeld and Little Phatty spring to mind) plus logic's manual read's like a whole degree's worth of music tech.

No sequencer's have any magic secret's. It is all about learning about EQ, compression, mixing and synthesis to be straight. No doubt Noisia would make a sick tune in reason which will have people saying '' what synth did they make that bass with'' or wateva caus they know what they are doing... u get me?

Didn't sKream use that shitty built in plug with fruity to make most his bass?

Rant over

dubstepz wrote:

dubstepz wrote: But I can do a shit load more learning a Virus TI inside out over something like the ES1.

Going back to that....

Getting a Virus Ti because you think it will make your music on a diff level is not true, in a majority of circumstances..

Why?

Because bare people will just flick through preset's and turn a few knob's occasionally.

It's all about learning about synthesis on the ES1 (or similar) and then progressively working up so you get the most out of what you have.

You will see what you need and buy it. Not because you think it will make you a top producer but because you know the capabilities it has that is currently lacking in your setup. This is why something like reason or fruity is so good for beginners caus it teaches you all the basic's if you bother to learn them.

The fact that your asking if something like ableton is ''inferior'' only suggests that you don't understand how sequencer's work and the advantages it may have over DAW's.

And wanting to move to a ''pro'' package means nothing unless you know specifically what it does you cant do now.

I would READ THE FUCKING MANUAL of everything you buy.. it's more than an installation guide.

i would even read the manual before buying it to see what it can do and if it's worth getting. Some manual's have great synthesis tutorials built in (Waldorf Blofeld and Little Phatty spring to mind) plus logic's manual read's like a whole degree's worth of music tech.

No sequencer's have any magic secret's. It is all about learning about EQ, compression, mixing and synthesis to be straight. No doubt Noisia would make a sick tune in reason which will have people saying '' what synth did they make that bass with'' or wateva caus they know what they are doing... u get me?

Didn't sKream use that shitty built in plug with fruity to make most his bass?

Rant over

+1, everyone is looking for a shortcut or something, in reality if you learn about signal flow and processing and learn about synthesis in general, when you get a chance to step behind a nice piece of kit then your skills will truly shine. Otherwise you are wasting time and money.

on the topic of learning, reason is a great way to do that, wiring up things and figuring out exactly what happened, has a high learning curve : D

dubstepz wrote: Didn't sKream use that shitty built in plug with fruity to make most his bass?

The same one that nearly everyone that uses that platform, including myself, uses to make earth-shattering bass. Not really shitty, just simple

Ableton's great, i couldn't imagine using another DAW, it just clicks with me.

Although, granted, i tend to bounce things into reaper to mix down and then bring it back into ableton for tweaking, so it's not without faults.

But it's only inferior if it doesn't work for you.

HxdB wrote:

dubstepz wrote: Didn't sKream use that shitty built in plug with fruity to make most his bass?

The same one that nearly everyone that uses that platform, including myself, uses to make earth-shattering bass. Not really shitty, just simple

exactly... 3oscx and the 404 plugins are immense and a really simple to use effectively but if you know what you're doing you rarely need all these big plugins unless you want to do some serious 8oscilator bizzness

Legendary wrote:

HxdB wrote:

dubstepz wrote: Didn't sKream use that shitty built in plug with fruity to make most his bass?

The same one that nearly everyone that uses that platform, including myself, uses to make earth-shattering bass. Not really shitty, just simple

exactly... 3oscx and the 404 plugins are immense and a really simple to use effectively but if you know what you're doing you rarely need all these big plugins unless you want to do some serious 8oscilator bizzness

Yeh

I have never used fruity so perhaps should use the word basic instead of shitty.

You know that im saying anyway.

dubstepz wrote:

Brisance wrote:I'd point out to everyone still confused about software: Imagine you are a writer, does it make you write better literature if you use one typewriter or another, write books by hand or with microsoft word?

Naaaa I don't agree with this at all.

I can do so much more with Logic than I can with Ableton, if only because of the range of instruments and effect's.

I have not used reason for about 6 years but i can tell you for a fact that Logic does a load that it doesn't.

It is all about learning how to use thing's properly.

But I can do a shit load more learning a Virus TI inside out over something like the ES1.

Ableton does it all but Logic does more.

Ableton does do bit's that Logic can't and is fantastic at what it does.

I think the point he was trying to make is the content will be the same no matter what you use to convey it. If you can write a good melody, it doesnt matter if you whistle it or make it on a Virus TI.. if its good it good. Sure, MSWord might speed up your process relative to writing it out longhand on pad and paper, but it can also slow you down with a bunch of unneccesary spellchecking and text wrapping. So yeah, Logic does more, but if you can get Ableton to do what you need it to to get your message out, do you really need what Logic offers? ProTools is a far superior recording program to Audacity, but I use Audacity to record all of my mixes and have for years.

I have been an Ableton Live user since ver 3.0 and havnt upgraded to 7 from 5 yet. Sound quality was an issue for a bit, but then I learned the software and installed some plugins and now its not. All the techniques learned in making Ableton sound better can also be transfered over to Reason and other progs.