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Lui wrote:

CityZen wrote:

Lui wrote: Yeah man I agree for sure. Except, didn't the Gracie family dominate the UFC back when there were no rules? Gracie was BJJ all the way because he was representing his family art. Although he returned recently and got wasted my Matt Hughes, I think. But yeah, eyes, throat, balls, these things decide a street fight for sure. I humbly decline my prior stance.

My UFC history is a bit weak, well that is to say my memory is a bit weak. I think you're right that the Gracie's were tearing it up back in the no rules days, making my point slightly invalid.
I could be very wrong but I just have this unshakable feeling that BJJ has only risen in popularity because of UFC, and the UFC only loves BJJ because it fits in with the "cleaner" image the UFC was trying to achieve. I mean lets face it, who enjoys watching two BJJ black belts hug each other. It makes for a dull fight.

Yeah man I agree again. In fact, I have heard that BJJ was created more as a spiritual art that respected life because it submitted a man without destroying him. I think you may be on to something here

id say knowing BJJ would actually be very practical in street fight. Gotta keep in mind a jiu jitsu practioner is trained on how to break someones limb as fast as possible

Considering in a street fight theyd be trained, while theyre opponent is likely not, it's fair to say theyd probly be able to utilize, or more importantly, avoid any eye gouging, groin shots etc. and counter with something that would end a fight.

Alot of BJJ is choke holds as well limb breaking, alot of the stand up choke holds a person learns in BJJ wouldnt work in the UFC cage, which is why alot of fights go to the ground. Police chokes/holds are all derived from arts like BJJ.

In fact, it may be more effective to use BJJ in a street fight than traditional stand up boxing/kickboxing; if you stand toe toe with someone and throw blows, you risk getting seriously injured from strikes, as well as the person your fighting. If you choke someone out, the fight ends quickly with minimal damage, and many chokes won't leave a mark, so its tough to find evidence in case the person you whoop wishes to sue you for assault.

So yeah BJJ would actually be very practical in a street fight, and as always, someone trained always has a leg up over someone whose not.

all fightin' leagues are gay except for Extreme Cagefighting. Urijah Faber represent!~

Machida is my favourite and the only martial artist left really, he did Shotokan karate, others do Tae Kwon Do but not the same really.
Ortiz / Penn / Franklin / Evans ... thats some defeat list
I missed the uk vs us for a few weeks.

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tronn wrote:
In fact, it may be more effective to use BJJ in a street fight than traditional stand up boxing/kickboxing; if you stand toe toe with someone and throw blows, you risk getting seriously injured from strikes, as well as the person your fighting. If you choke someone out, the fight ends quickly with minimal damage, and many chokes won't leave a mark, so its tough to find evidence in case the person you whoop wishes to sue you for assault.

But if your going toe to toe, and your a kickboxer, you'll have the knowledge and training to be able to block their silly drunken attempts at kicks and punches and counter with knees to the face punches.

hurlingdervish wrote:when the gladiatorial games started they didnt kill each other it wasnt the point. it escalated from free for all fist fighting like ufc.

saying that "they consented" is such bullshit. theres people im sure who consent to having a deathmatch shootout with guns as long as it got them fame. say....prisoners.

They actually typically did fight to the death. Nobody would want to dishonor their nation state by losing. Fights were regularly to the death. Though the olympics were a time to cease fighting and come together in competition, people did still die in the event.

CityZen wrote:

Lui wrote: Yeah man I agree for sure. Except, didn't the Gracie family dominate the UFC back when there were no rules? Gracie was BJJ all the way because he was representing his family art. Although he returned recently and got wasted my Matt Hughes, I think. But yeah, eyes, throat, balls, these things decide a street fight for sure. I humbly decline my prior stance.

My UFC history is a bit weak, well that is to say my memory is a bit weak. I think you're right that the Gracie's were tearing it up back in the no rules days, making my point slightly invalid.
I could be very wrong but I just have this unshakable feeling that BJJ has only risen in popularity because of UFC, and the UFC only loves BJJ because it fits in with the "cleaner" image the UFC was trying to achieve. I mean lets face it, who enjoys watching two BJJ black belts hug each other. It makes for a dull fight.

see everyone uses BJJ beause of teh gracie guard (the best possible guard because you have so much control) - and thats why gracie won so many of teh early fights. he'd just guard up and then wait for the other guy to leave a trailing limb and then lock into a submission. to be honest i quite like watchin 2 bjj guys go at it because its so technical but to say that ufc loves bjj due to its cleaner image is bollox. ufc want what fans would describe as entertaining fights and like you, many dont find bjj matches that entertaining (people start booing the fights after a minute of it being on the ground). Thats why now ground and pound is the most used tactic because it uses the guard but also looks pretty good to the crowd.

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JTL wrote:

tronn wrote:
In fact, it may be more effective to use BJJ in a street fight than traditional stand up boxing/kickboxing; if you stand toe toe with someone and throw blows, you risk getting seriously injured from strikes, as well as the person your fighting. If you choke someone out, the fight ends quickly with minimal damage, and many chokes won't leave a mark, so its tough to find evidence in case the person you whoop wishes to sue you for assault.

But if your going toe to toe, and your a kickboxer, you'll have the knowledge and training to be able to block their silly drunken attempts at kicks and punches and counter with knees to the face punches.

Yeah, thats always sweet, but then you bruise your knuckles.

And you also get sued for assault. Cuz of all the evidence, broken faces and such.

If you choke someone out, theyll actually forget what happened too, so you can choke them out and book it

CityZen wrote:

tronn wrote:So yeah BJJ would actually be very practical in a street fight, and as always, someone trained always has a leg up over someone whose not.

I was never suggesting that not being trained is preferable to being trained. Imagine this if you will; you get in a beef after a night out. A man throws a punch and you successfully catch him in a flying arm bar. You're both on the floor now and just as you're about to snap his arm at the elbow, 5 of his mates pour out of the chip shop and cave your face in. Now do you wish you had lied on the floor so easily?
The point i'm trying to make is there are a load of other martial arts that will help a whole lot more in a street fight. Moreover, BJJ has very little to offer (if anything at all) in a street fight, that another martial art does not offer already.
In conclusion, BJJ is my least favourite martial art after Capoeira.

(I have nothing against Brazil)

There are actually alot of stand up choke holds in BJJ. There not used in the UFC because there not practical against kickboxers, who also have stand up choke holds from the clinch, and knees.

If youve ever seen a bouncer, or a cop, or a soldier choke someone out while standing up, your probably watching a modified form of BJJ, which may not necessarily be Gracie BJJ.

I completely agree that being a kickboxer or traditional boxer is probably the most effective martial art for streetfights, out of sheer damage. But its the riskiest too.

If its up to me, when in doubt, choke em out

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CityZen wrote:

tronn wrote:If youve ever seen a bouncer, or a cop, or a soldier choke someone out while standing up, your probably watching a modified form of BJJ, which may not necessarily be Gracie BJJ.

Not if you are from anywhere other than Brazil. It's a whole lot more likely that they are using traditional jujitsu techniques or maybe Shaolin Chin Na or even at a push, Hap Ki Do. BJJ hasn't got the notoriety or the history to be respected enough (UFC or not) to be employed by the worlds special forces, police, bouncers etc

Def agree hapkido is used for joint locks. But then where do the chokes come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatives

"The current Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) replaced the Marine Corps LINE combat system in 2002. The U.S. Army adopted the Modern Army Combatives (MAC) program with the publishing of the 2002 field manual (FM 3-25.150), written by Matt Larsen. MAC draws from systems such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and eskrima, which could be trained "live" and can be fully integrated into current Close Quarters Battle tactics and training methods.

In August 2007 MAC training became required in every Army unit by Army regulation 350-1 (Training). The Modern Army Combatives Program was adopted as the basis for the Air Force Combatives Program in January 2008.[2]"

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Thats a good point, i think most common/standing chokes (rear naked etc.) are derived from jujutsu

krav maga

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Lui wrote:Apache knife combat is some deadly shit eh?

Is that the eskrima stuff?

I think solid snake used that in MGS3...im gonna see if they got classes on that in ny