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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:49 pm
by hackman
its not water, thats what i mean about the media, its energy, some people just dont get that spiritual type stuff, fair enough, but i belive in that type of stuff therefore i must be crazy
and its so cheap the drugs companies wouldn't as they would make no profit, well they would but miniscule to what they make now of aids drugs
and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
edit: and the current drugs obviously only suppress the aids, so its a long time source of profit, so the drugs companies would have no interest in making people better
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:54 pm
by NilsFG
hackman wrote:and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
Well animals ain't an argument, it's proven they can have placebo effects too.
I believe in healing small things with plants and stuff. Bigger diseases can happen but chances are very small. However, according to me the placebo to real-help ratio is bigger with homeopathy then regular medicine.
And spiritual stuff? No thanks. Just my 2c.
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:56 pm
by hackman
a dog does not know what it is being given imo, especially if you mash into their food
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:59 pm
by NilsFG
hackman wrote:a dog does not know what it is being given imo, especially if you mash into their food
I'm really not trying to be a dick or so but I wouldn't be so sure about that tho.
Anyway it's all personal opinion, we'll let the scientists fight it out
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:00 pm
by tappy tippon
hackman wrote:its not water, thats what i mean about the media, its energy, some people just dont get that spiritual type stuff, fair enough, but i belive in that type of stuff therefore i must be crazy
and its so cheap the drugs companies wouldn't as they would make no profit, well they would but miniscule to what they make now of aids drugs
and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
edit: and the current drugs obviously only suppress the aids, so its a long time source of profit, so the drugs companies would have no interest in making people better
i dont think ur crazy. i agree with most of what u said...
i've read about medicine free hospitals that have cured cancers/tumors through conscious healing...
not particularly beneficial to the pharmaceutical industry though
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:44 pm
by magma
hackman wrote:its not water, thats what i mean about the media, its energy, some people just dont get that spiritual type stuff, fair enough, but i belive in that type of stuff therefore i must be crazy
and its so cheap the drugs companies wouldn't as they would make no profit, well they would but miniscule to what they make now of aids drugs
and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
Placebos are all well and good, but the scientific community isn't interested in things that can't be proven. They've got a pretty good system, to be honest.
Within current models of how chemicals are composed and interact (which appear to be perfectly fine and utterly predictable) there simply aren't bits of molecules small enough to still exist at the dilutions that homeopathic remedies use. According to all rational observation there is no way that it has a genuine effect - water having memory? Seriously?
Now if it works for people that believe it, then fine, but it really shouldn't be given the time of day by people interested in learning about how things actually work. It's far more effective to find real cures than rely on people believing in something hard enough for it to work, isn't it?
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:49 pm
by magma
NilsFG wrote:hackman wrote:and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
Well animals ain't an argument, it's proven they can have placebo effects too.
No, they almost certainly can't. There was one study quite a while ago that suggested it and was quite rightly fairly ridiculed for it. You can't have a placebo effect unless you have a concept of both self and medicine. A dog may have a decent sense of self, but I'm pretty sure they have no fucking clue as to the medicinal relevance of a white tablet. Hell, unless you explained it to them with language (again, something dogs don't have) a person would have very little chance of knowing what the hell it was you'd given them to eat... let alone that they should expect it to help the ailment that they're also not terribly aware of.
You think dogs know they have cancer? No, they just know they're in pain and feeling shit.
</rant>
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:13 pm
by hackman
Magma wrote:hackman wrote:its not water, thats what i mean about the media, its energy, some people just dont get that spiritual type stuff, fair enough, but i belive in that type of stuff therefore i must be crazy
and its so cheap the drugs companies wouldn't as they would make no profit, well they would but miniscule to what they make now of aids drugs
and to knock the placebo argument, it works, ive seen it myself, used with success on animals
Placebos are all well and good, but the scientific community isn't interested in things that can't be proven. They've got a pretty good system, to be honest.
Within current models of how chemicals are composed and interact (which appear to be perfectly fine and utterly predictable) there simply aren't bits of molecules small enough to still exist at the dilutions that homeopathic remedies use. According to all rational observation there is no way that it has a genuine effect - water having memory? Seriously?
Now if it works for people that believe it, then fine, but it really shouldn't be given the time of day by people interested in learning about how things actually work. It's far more effective to find real cures than rely on people believing in something hard enough for it to work, isn't it?
there are no molecules, its energy
everything has its own energy, and energy can be absorbed by most things, especially water
and doesnt the fact that animals can be treated effectivley disprove the idea of it being placebo?
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:16 pm
by hackman
yeah, which is why it can work so well on us, all goes hand in hand with chakras as well
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:18 pm
by NilsFG
hackman wrote:there are no molecules, its energy
Are you trying to say that molecules dont exist or that it's energy as in E=mc² ?
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:19 pm
by ovadose
THEY FOUND THE AIDS FOR CURE?!?!?!?!
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:34 pm
by hackman
NilsFG wrote:hackman wrote:there are no molecules, its energy
Are you trying to say that molecules dont exist or that it's energy as in E=mc² ?
original compound in homeopathy diluted so many times that no molecules are present, just energy of original compound
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:30 pm
by NilsFG
hackman wrote:NilsFG wrote:hackman wrote:there are no molecules, its energy
Are you trying to say that molecules dont exist or that it's energy as in E=mc² ?
original compound in homeopathy diluted so many times that no molecules are present, just energy of original compound
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:22 pm
by magma
hackman wrote:NilsFG wrote:hackman wrote:there are no molecules, its energy
Are you trying to say that molecules dont exist or that it's energy as in E=mc² ?
original compound in homeopathy diluted so many times that no molecules are present, just energy of original compound
So if this energy is real it must have a physical form, yes? Or it must be being carried by something with physical form? It must be made of either atoms or charged basic particles of some description, right? Is it smaller than that? Or is it, as part of it's very careful "explaination" by Homeopathy salesmen, invisible to every test you could possibly think of throwing at it other than whether someone thinks it stopped them getting such bad headaches?
If you can't explain it properly there's probably a good reason you can't or won't... science doesn't leave much room for "seems to" and I'm pretty glad about that when I'm prescribed medicines/treatments.
Don't let the Enlightenment be something that just happened to other people. Everyone else got on the ride centuries ago and we've all got iPods, pictures of Earth from space and access to organ transplants, Ibuprofen and MDMA. Science is blimmin great.
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:29 pm
by NilsFG
Magma wrote:Science is blimmin great.
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:12 pm
by hackman
Magma wrote:So if this energy is real it must have a physical form, yes? Or it must be being carried by something with physical form? It must be made of either atoms or charged basic particles of some description, right? Is it smaller than that?
its whether you believe in spiritual shit or not imo
energy has no form that is discernible by modern science, in fact contradicted by it, its what you believe, i believe in that stuff
i also think whether you believe or not has a great deal to play whether it works or not for you, not placebo
i mean everyone believes conventional medicine works, just cos thats what you know, and are taught, so it usually works. if homeopathy or other unconventional medicine was taught and common practice people would believe that it worked, as it DOES usuallywork so it would be more accepted. all the tests that theyve done that ive seen have been unfair and biased, but please prove me wrong
Magma wrote:Science is blimmin great.
I HEAR THAT SHIZZLE
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:59 pm
by NilsFG
hackman wrote:i mean everyone believes conventional medicine works, just cos thats what you know, and are taught, so it usually works.
It's true that the placebo effect is a part of conventional medicine, but I expect it to work not because people tell me it'll work but because a medicine takes tens of years to be developped.
The one little chemical you use as a medicine is one that is filtered out of thousands of possible others.
And when they're finally tested on humans, they give 50% of the group a placebo to test if it really works.
By the way to the person telling me that animals have no placebo effect: I believe they have, it's basicly like the cell-phone-gives-you-cancer discussion, 50% of the researchers say nay and 50% says yay.
And yes it's true, energy is 100% abstract, but personally I wouldn't search anything spiritual behind it.