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Shonky wrote:

RickyRicardo wrote:imposing your standards on someone else's culture just smells of arrogance.

respect and tolerance is the message

Although as a liberal myself (mostly) how do you justify being tolerant of intolerant folks? Not saying all muslims are intolerant, but there's a great deal of their beliefs (and Christians' beliefs) that aren't quite in the spirit of goodwill to all people of the world. .

That's a bit like saying, "How do you justify not being a racist when there are so many racists in the world?"

I totally understand disliking someone for their own intolerance, but it should stop short of projecting that same intolerance back at them.

Thing is in terms of things like foreign policy, I find myself in complete agreement with them to a point, I just find the whole religious thing rather bemusing after all these years of reason.

It's not a suprise that when people feel collectively under attack, they dig deeper into that which unifies them....be it religion, music, etc.

i saw himin kippax, and he offered me some tamazipan and stared blankly with the cold eyes of a broken man

he wasnt wearing a vale

narcossist wrote:

razer-wire wrote:should theay or shouldnt theay
i say yes

man for a twelve yr old you don't half bring some contentious shit to the table. surely it ain't upto heads on a music forum to decide whats right or wrong, esp not concerning religous dress codes

leave that to politicians, they're better qualified fo these things

wasteman

edit: just noticed the wink; not good enuff.

blatantly, geezers should wear them as well.
those arab blokes give me the right horn, no way i can think straight.

RickyRicardo wrote:

Shonky wrote:

RickyRicardo wrote:imposing your standards on someone else's culture just smells of arrogance.

respect and tolerance is the message

Although as a liberal myself (mostly) how do you justify being tolerant of intolerant folks? Not saying all muslims are intolerant, but there's a great deal of their beliefs (and Christians' beliefs) that aren't quite in the spirit of goodwill to all people of the world. .

That's a bit like saying, "How do you justify not being a racist when there are so many racists in the world?"

I totally understand disliking someone for their own intolerance, but it should stop short of projecting that same intolerance back at them.

So I should respect bigots?

And by not doing so I'm a bigot?

Would this apply to immigrants who run up against the BNP? They're not "neo-izan tolerant"?

And why should any atheist give a shit about religious beliefs at all?

no, that's not what i said at all.

fat people should wear the veil.....

i hate threads that make my opinion bubble over!!!

i aint gettin into should they shouldnt they, but i do feel that in the instance of the teacher wearing the veil, if she had worn her veil to the interview and got the job then cool , but she didnt , so its fair she was treated as so.
however.
i think children should be taught by women in veils , they should be taught by men in skull caps, they should be taught by buddhists in robes etc.
these people exist in british (and obviously everywhere else) society, and there culture is all part of this. i feel the only way we can teach kids the value of equality and acceptance is to put them in a position where they are having to respect and deal with people of these cultures.
although i dont think that this is a green light for cross dressers or neo sizan to turn up in their best clobber, and so this is the grey area.
its a mess and jack straw is a prick.
i love all of ya . until you prove otherwise.

poax wrote:i think children should be taught by women in veils , they should be taught by men in skull caps, they should be taught by buddhists in robes etc.
these people exist in british (and obviously everywhere else) society, and there culture is all part of this.

definitely, big ups poax.

the alternative 'route to equality', the one they take in france, is that NO-ONE wears any religious symbols, from crosses to hijabs to skull caps, and (the theory runs) that way everyone is treated as equally french, irrespective of background (doesn't work in practice - try being black or arabic in the french pjs).

i much prefer the british model of 'come as you are', of co-existing identities where you can rep both your past/ancestry (wherever that lies) and your present situation at the same time.

i dunno i cant believe this country has come to this ...

i cant help but feel its all about to go nuts, nar mean?

poax wrote:i cant help but feel its all about to go nuts, nar mean?

dread, init. of the wrong sort. best to remember it was different at some point before. least then we'll have aspirations.

i think in certain circumstances you need to stop searching for philosophically sound ground and adapt to practical considerations...

should i tolerate intolerance? if tolerance seems the most likely route to breaking down intolerance and alienation, and intolerance will inevitably further alienate an already worryingly segregated culture, then its not about moral absolutes anymore, ill adapt. i have a considerable problem with organised religion and its trappings, but i have aspirations for social goals and cohesion, and if accepting overt statements of faith is the appropriate way to go in that regard then ill go with it, and respect it. if we're to get anywhere in this country we need to

i would ideally prefer a world where no-one expresses their religious belief in so overt a manner, because it can be so divisive, but i do not see it as the place of the law or any higher authority to impose it... it needs to be voluntary if it is to work against the problems we seek to address - i.e. division and alienation

as to what was said above, issues like this should be considered and discussed by EVERYONE, it is NOT just an issue for govt and politicians... we need understanding and thought from the ground up if anything is to be achieved

I don't remember people being quite so overzealous when it came to stopping the IRA though, which was at the time far more worrying. No ID cards proffered then from what I remember.

Funny how the US and UK governments seem to be quite happy to join up in this war on terror, but the US government did nothing to stop NORAID from raising money in the states to fund the nationalist's valiant struggle to blow up innocent bystanders in mainland Britain.

I generally think that better integration's required, but the "values" of secular society (boozing, drugs, consumerism, sexual promiscuity, etc) seem to be at complete odds with religious thoughts of all persuasions.

as for jack straw, im absolutely disgusted by what he's done. it seems to me that pursuant to furthering his standing in the party, and his popularity in middle england, he has kicked off one of the most important debates facing us as a nation, in a completely inappropriate and irresponsible manner - now its not a discussion, its a fight, and that is very bad news when we're talking about peoples' core beliefs, whatever we think of them

see that nail? you just hit it on the head!

elgato wrote:should i tolerate intolerance? if tolerance seems the most likely route to breaking down intolerance and alienation, and intolerance will inevitably further alienate an already worryingly segregated culture, then its not about moral absolutes anymore, ill adapt. i have a considerable problem with organised religion and its trappings, but i have aspirations for social goals and cohesion, and if accepting overt statements of faith is the appropriate way to go in that regard then ill go with it, and respect it. if we're to get anywhere in this country we need to[/b]

seen.

i put this to you though. imagine you're a muslim father of a young girl and boy. you live in bradford. you've raised them both as muslim's from birth. let's say they're both around 14-15 years old. your daughter has been taught to wear the veil all of her young life, and to uphold the tenents of the koran.

how do you tell her, that because of local political views in her country, she now has to take off the veil? what kind of message is that sending about her own identity as a woman? she's been taught all her life to conform to one belief, and now politicians are telling her that she must change? this is how conservative family structure get's torn apart.

as poax said, it's like juggling sticks of dynamite.

elgato wrote:i would ideally prefer a world where no-one expresses their religious belief in so overt a manner, because it can be so divisive, but i do not see it as the place of the law or any higher authority to impose it... it needs to be voluntary if it is to work against the problems we seek to address - i.e. division and alienation

I agree with you but is it a religious expression or a cultural one?

If it's cultural then what distinguishes the wearing of a veil from say a mohican hairstyle, or tatoos / facial piercings, or dreadlocks, or baseball caps and hoodies. Those would seem to be equally overt expressions of identity and difference.

I think the big difference might have to do with communication. If you were fond of wearing shades all the time you would probably find that there were times and situations where others would prefer you removed them for the sake of eye contact. I'm not defending Jack Straw at all but I think that's a fair point, and it's really not so different with hoodies is it? It makes people uneasy when they can't see your face and encourages a situation where people don't trust each other.

But yes, like some have implied here, these issues are being used by unscrupulous politicians to further their own aims.

seckle wrote:seen.

i put this to you though. imagine you're a muslim father of a young girl and boy. you live in bradford. you've raised them both as muslim's from birth. let's say they're both around 14-15 years old. your daughter has been taught to wear the veil all of her young life, and to uphold the tenents of the koran.

how do you tell her, that because of local political views in her country, she now has to take off the veil? what kind of message is that sending about her own identity as a woman? she's been taught all her life to conform to one belief, and now politicians are telling her that she must change? this is how conservative family structure get's torn apart.

im pretty sure that you've misunderstood what i said. i would prefer it if they were happy to compromise in order to facilitate integration, but pretty much the exact emphasis of what i said was that in my view its not the law/govt's place to impose that decision on them, and as people looking for social cohesion, we should accept their choices in pursuit of the greater good

masstronaut wrote:I think the big difference might have to do with communication. If you were fond of wearing shades all the time you would probably find that there were times and situations where others would prefer you removed them for the sake of eye contact. I'm not defending Jack Straw at all but I think that's a fair point, and it's really not so different with hoodies is it? It makes people uneasy when they can't see your face and encourages a situation where people don't trust each other.

i agree... as ive said i would prefer it if people were willing to compromise. but given the situation as it stands, with tensions running so high, i dont think its a good idea for people to start ordering muslims around on this issue, nor for govt to start exerting pressure in this way