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nowaysj wrote:

magma wrote:I still don't get where the causality comes from.

Honestly?

Yep. I can see a link - depressed people both take meds and experience an increase in suicidal thoughts over time - but no causality. Non-treated depressives would also see a logical increase in suicidal thoughts as their condition worsens... it strikes me that Prozac isn't creating the thoughts, it's just not doing a very good job of stopping them for a lot of people.

magma wrote:it strikes me that Prozac isn't creating the thoughts, it's just not doing a very good job of stopping them for a lot of people.

When you read of the study above that says that one in ten otherwise healthy people who take Prozac begin to have suicidal thoughts, you do not understand that as causation, but merely correlation?

nowaysj wrote:

magma wrote:it strikes me that Prozac isn't creating the thoughts, it's just not doing a very good job of stopping them for a lot of people.

When you read of the study above that says that one in ten otherwise healthy people who take Prozac begin to have suicidal thoughts, you do not understand that as causation, but merely correlation?

It doesn't surprise me that introducing inappropriate medication to an otherwise healthy brain causes it to be unhealthy, no. If you gave a perfectly healthy person blood thinners intended for those that were susceptable to blood clots, they'd see negative reactions and possibly death - it doesn't mean that warfarin should be banned for those with conditions that actually benefit from it though.

Not all medicine is good for all the people all the time.

I believe you are arguing for the sake of argument, good day.

Lol

nowaysj wrote:I believe you are arguing for the sake of argument, good day.

I'm honestly not. The logic that healthy brain + inappropriate medicine could lead to an unhealthy brain seems fairly plain to me. You wouldn't test radiotherapy on patients without cancer, because you'd probably end up giving them cancer - that doesn't mean radiotherapy causes cancer, though... it means it can if it's used inappropriately.

Brains are complicated - you can't just throw anything at them and assume because they were ok before, they should be ok after; they're changing through learning all the time for a start... before you've even come to the problem of "contaminating" your healthy brain with Prozac that's designed to treat an ailment they don't have, it'd be almost impossible to isolate one enough from other inputs to get a reliable result.

I absolutely agree that Prozac is too ubiquitous... too many people are put on it as a first port of call, but a handful of massacres in a single country taken from a sample of tens of millions of people taking a drug worldwide does not a pattern make. There are clearly other, likely more important, factors at work.

i'd like to state the obvious once again that the batshit crazy shooter once again had access to guns thanks to his ignorant parent, not that he was a lifelong gun nut, also that he wasn't so autistic video gane player who recently discover mis mom had guns.
this shit too a lot of plannning
i'm noty excusing guns but ffs without legal ones this kid would have done it anyway.

usa people seem to forget timothy mcveigh, guns aren't the cause it's because of lack of decent mental hearhcare imo

guns are an easy excuse. with the common arguments

deadly habit wrote:i'd like to state the obvious once again that the batshit crazy shooter once again had access to guns thanks to his ignorant parent, not that he was a lifelong gun nut, also that he wasn't so autistic video gane player who recently discover mis mom had guns.
this shit too a lot of plannning
i'm noty excusing guns but ffs without legal ones this kid would have done it anyway.

usa people seem to forget timothy mcveigh, guns aren't the cause it's because of lack of decent mental hearhcare imo

guns are an easy excuse. with the common arguments

But they're also an easy option. A mentally unstable would-be mass-murderer that can't get hold of a semi-automatic rifle is going to find it much more difficult to act on their plans... it's much harder to knife 30 kids before you get taken down than it is to unload a clip into a classroom and then do yourself in.

It would take years of planning and some serious connections to commit this crime in the UK. I'd have no idea where to even start looking for an assault rifle, let alone ammunition - I'm sure it's possible, but is a kid that found it hard to socialise at school really going to be making gangland connections to furnish his gun rack? This guy just had to open his Mum's closet... it's really quite... different...

Here's the thing, even without gangland connection i could go out today and get an assault rifle or pistol just as easily as i could buy a bag of weed.
People from Europe/the UK don't seem to understand how many guns are in the US and just how easy it is to get one.
Even banning guns or stricter control laws will do jack shit due to the sheer number games of guns in the states not including the illegal ones.

magma wrote:it's much harder to knife 30 kids before you get taken down than it is to unload a clip into a classroom and then do yourself in.

Are you certain of this? Recent news suggests otherwise.

When shooters take antideppressants, which anyone with even minor issues is being put on these days, it's the antideppressants.

When shooters play violent video games and shoot up a whole school, then you should leave video games alone. Correlaction doesn't equal causation.

And did that study include a control group popping a placebo?

Btw. People with ADHD who pop ritalin generally experience a soothing effect, while those without it tend to get very stimulated and jitterty. "Healthy" people taking medication CAN get the opposite effect of what it was intended for.

I mean, ADHD was invented to sell medication, goddamnit! Brain damage in the same region of people with autism spectrum disorders you say? Well then autism must be invented too! To sell electric trainsets!

Genevieve wrote:When shooters take antideppressants, which anyone with even minor issues is being put on these days, it's the antideppressants.

When shooters play violent video games and shoot up a whole school, then you should leave video games alone. Correlaction doesn't equal causation.

And did that study include a control group popping a placebo?

Btw. People with ADHD who pop ritalin generally experience a soothing effect, while those without it tend to get very stimulated and jitterty. "Healthy" people taking medication CAN get the opposite effect of what it was intended for.

I mean, ADHD was invented to sell medication, goddamnit! Brain damage in the same region of people with autism spectrum disorders you say? Well then autism must be invented too! To sell electric trainsets!

Clearly you aren't familiar with Train Simulator 2013 and it's thousands of dollars of DLC

The same increased suicidal ideation was found in the depressed as well. Hell, it was even found in shrimp. But I'm making it up because I have an agenda.

Btw. It's kind of ironic how quick western Europeans librruls are to excuse Middle Easterners and Africans for (often pretty brutal) behavior they disagree with by conceding that they're from a different part of the world with different morals and values and that you can't judge their cutlrure through your own collective European bubble. But when it comes to America and guns, this sort of understanding goes straight out the window.

nowaysj wrote:The same increased suicidal ideation was found in the depressed as well. Hell, it was even found in shrimp. But I'm making it up because I have an agenda.

No, it's just when you're quoting studies, it's decent enough to explain the exact conditions OF that study. I'm not saying it isn't true, just that you didn't add enough information about the study. Unless I missed it.

I didn't include much of anything. If the concept interests you, I'd hope you'd read for yourself. Also, I thought this was common knowledge.

So basically even though you're all in disagreement, you're all saying:
a) drugs being prescribed too often, too easily
b) we don't know enough about how these drugs work and their possible side effects
c) we don't know enough about the causes of depression
d) easy access to guns is probably a bad thing

q

nowaysj wrote:q

nowaysj wrote:

magma wrote:it's much harder to knife 30 kids before you get taken down than it is to unload a clip into a classroom and then do yourself in.

Are you certain of this? Recent news suggests otherwise.

uh yeah i'm pretty certain i could kill far more people in a shorter amount of time with a god damn AK than I could a knife.