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charliefoy wrote:Whats the point in trying to make a sub heard on laptop speakers? Isnt the whole idea of a sub that you feel it rather than hear it?

dj stick wrote:

charliefoy wrote:Whats the point in trying to make a sub heard on laptop speakers? Isnt the whole idea of a sub that you feel it rather than hear it?

Perhaps people are getting confused between sub and mid range or something ridiculous.

Or perhaps that IF you want to listen to dungeon on laptop speakers for some obscure reason, most tunes feel really empty if they consist out of 808 stabs and drums and you dont hear the 808.

Dubstep is not meant for laptop speakers, let's keep it that way

charliefoy wrote:Whats the point in trying to make a sub heard on laptop speakers? Isnt the whole idea of a sub that you feel it rather than hear it?

That is precisely the idea of a sub. I think there is some confusion out there when it comes to finding information on mixing sub. Most genres are concerned with how their music sounds on terrible speaker systems (car, headphones, laptop speakers) which is why a lot of mix engineers A/B with Auratone 5c Sound Cubes because they want to know what their mix will sound like on awful systems. Dungeon/Dark/Deep whatever you want to call, imho, shouldn't be concerned with this and so therefore shouldn't use distorted or compressed sub unless that happens to be the effect you are trying to achieve.

I dont think this is really a problem meant for mixing, but rather composition. If the tune rely to heavily on sub, and need to work on less able speakers, then you probably need to add some entertaining bits on the mids and highs. Maybe add some metallic wobble stabs, add some cymbals, a lead. Just enough for the song not completely dissapear on anything but a sound system

dj stick wrote:

Rekah wrote:

dj stick wrote:Soundcloud

how do you make this hollow, sucking bass you hear alot in dnb? i'm in love with that sound.

i think that was just a sine wave with some distortion, filters and alot of resampling not really sure if that helps but i want to dig out that file any way so i can probably shed some more light on it

That would be lovely. Sorry for the late response btw, kinda forgot about this thread.

i tried but the file is corrupt only a compressor loads up for some reason

ok so no compression on the sub, ill try it out next tune.

Immerse wrote:ok so no compression on the sub, ill try it out next tune.

Okay I'm going to go into this in a lot of detail, because I don't fully understand your understanding of a sub (that's not a copout, btw!).

There are two different kinds of subs when people talk about this topic - and it comes up a LOT on these very forums. (In fact we should have a topic dedicated JUST to sub production - that's how often it comes up!).

1. The first one is some kind of harmonic-rich waveform (or sample), low-passed quite low (anything under a 100hz). This type of sub usually has a lot of harmonic content, even when low-passed. When we're talking reeses, this kind of sub create a very warm, rich-moving sound that is both deep, but also interesting. It also, however, lacks power. I don't care what anyone else says - I have a kickass setup at home and I've spent nights comparing the two (vs sine wave subs).
2. Pure sine wave subs (my own personal preference). These babies are the golden child of the subliminal frequencies. They sit anywhere from 30hz to about 60-70hz (depending on your highest sub note, this could even be higher, but you might want to re-think what you're using for sub if that's the case, or pitch it down an octave ). They BOOM with power. There's a reason why subby kicks are made from sine waves, and not low-passed squares or triangles. These babies need no processing, no compression, no nothing. They're the absolute bollocks.

So - when you ask about compressing subs, we first need to understand what kind of "sub" you're dealing with. Are you using with some sort of setup like #1, or are you a fucking badass and doing #2? If you're doing #1, yes, compression and all sorts of processing is required to get the most out of it (compression is probably the #1 thing you'll want). You should also set the attack a little high, as this will allow the initial transient through and then compress it to kingdom come. It'll provide a nice, warm sound, and can sound rather meaty. If however, you're looking at a sine-wave sub, nothing is needed, period. Compressing a sine wave sub (which takes up only 1 frequency at a time), is akin to simply modulating the volume. Because there are no other frequencies that might be varied in amplitude, you don't need to bring them to the same level (which is roughly what a compressor does, or at least closes that gap).

There's another aspect to this also - having a combination of the two. Aka, having a low-passed reese at around 100hz or so (or higher if you want a little more harmonic content), then high-passing this around the 50hz range and layering a pure sine wave sub underneath. The trick with this is getting them both gelling really well so that there is no noticeable gap in the frequency spectrum. Now, many people will say - why not just send the reese to two channels, split the EQs or multi-band compress, and then treat them differently? Well - to answer this I would say - create a reese, low-pass it at 60hz, listen to it on a sub, then do the same with a pure sine wave. Which one to you sounds more refined, more potent, more powerful? The sine wave. I don't care what anyone else says - you're wrong on this very point.

That's not to say that a sine-wave sub will SOUND BETTER. A low-passed, harmonic waveform might SOUND BETTER in the context of your tune - and this is something you'll need to establish for yourself.

So, to summarize - waveforms with lots of harmonic content - low-pass, compress to your heart's content. Sine wave subs, leave them alone.

One other point I'd like to note also - Triangle waveforms. Quite a lot of producers actually use these for subs - I think even Icicle mentions it in his masterclass, namely because they're very close to a sine wave, but have a little extra going on on top. I personally don't like them, I think they sound and feel light and powerless - but perhaps I just haven't done them right. In either case, it's something I'd like to experiment more with - and am happy to have someone else tell me how to treat them properly with the loving care they need to make a system boom.

thanks for the response man, you addressed just about everything i was curious about. i go route #2 every time, route #1 scares me mostly because i dont have a sub to listen to on my production studio so i can feel the power of the bass correctly through my phones. ive been mostly highpassing my layers/reeses etc. and dropping a sin underneath, i see what you mean by compression only being useful for volume control for a pure sin, i never actually thought about what i was doing when i compressed a sin. was just kind of going off of skreams word from that vid. thanks for the tips!

sines def dont have more boom than a triangle or a low passed square, if anything its the other way around. You dont need to compress a low passed square or a triangle, its just a single wave form playing 1 note at a timelike the sine, its consistent, unless you messed it up with other processing. If you make a reese then low pass it of course it will have less power than a sine, if you just low pass a simple square you wont have that problem.

Would anyone be kind enough to share any presets they've made from this thread?

Hey guys,

I'm trying to make a kick drum that is suitable to this kind of music similar to the one used in this song. A lot of deeper dubstep has a hard hitting kick drum with an understated transient. I can't get this right. I have no problem layering kicks to get a big house sounding deadmau5ish kick, but something with a darker more acoustic sound that isn't flabby is really hard for me. Anyone have any insight on what they might be doing? I'd really appreciate any help. Also, when I'm referencing a track I'm a little confused by what I'm seeing. When the kick/snares/hi hats hit on a pro track they all seem to be peaking around the same decibel level while my kick/snare/hi hat separation is 5 db or more. Is this because their track has been mastered and is limited? I've not mastered a track before and don't really use limiters much so I'm just curious if this is what is causing it or if I need to be smoothing everything out with a compressor?

thats a fucking gorgeous kick, id like to hear some tips on getting something like it

To immerse and co, definitely sounds well compressed, just a matter of finding the right samples really, put the track through an analyser and try to emulate the kicks peaks if you want a really similar sound. Good places to look would be more minimal drum and bass packs, such as the shogun one maybe and even indie packs might have what you're looking for, organic kicks often work well in this style

65L wrote:I tried to make an spmc/kryptic minds/icicle style sub bass in massive recently, here is the ksd file.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/zh6nsb

basically i just spent time assigning the macro one knob to a bunch of parameters with one goal in mind, which was to be able to morph from a standard sub drone to a weighty, metallic "wooump" sound with the twist of that macro control. so if you open up the ksd file, you'll find that the 0-50 percent range of the macro 1 knob achieves this sound pretty well.

then i put a few midi notes on c3 and created an envelope automation of the macro 1 knob giving it that long attack, and boom, i has dungeon sound

Do you have pics? I have an old version of Massive. Thank you.

wub wrote:Wub's multiple filter noodlings - V2.0

Ok, have got a rough outline of my 4 way filter setup. This assumes you're running 3xOsc, but that can be substituted for any other source;

- Run 3xOsc out through a mixer channel
- On the mixer channel, load 4 seperate Filters (each with a different preset)
- At the bottom of the mixer channel, load an XY controller
- On each of the Filters, right click the wet/dry knob on the mixer panel (to the right of the name), and link to controller. You're aiming to have all 4 wet/dry knobs controlled by the XY controller, so the links should be;

Filter A - XY Controller, X value, Input
Filter B - XY controller, X value, 1-Input
Filter C - XY controller, Y value, Input
Filter D - XY controller, Y value, 1-Input

- Make sure the REMOVE CONFLICTS box is unchecked.
- Increase the Speed value on the XY controller, and move the dot around it. You should see the 4 wet/dry knobs for the filters moving up and down depending on how you move the XY pointer.
- Play around with different movements of the XY controller to cut between the different filters
- Experiment, record, bounce etc etc


Notes - Ok, this isn't a true 4 way z-plane as discussed previously in this thread. The limitations with only using a 2 dimensional controller (the XY) is that values assigned to opposite 'corners' will always conflict each other. There is a way to work around this, by applying 2 XY controllers and having each one control 2 of the filters. You would have the ability to individual manipulate all 4 filters individually of each other, but actual real world hands on control of this would be fiddly without a dedicated MIDI controller (or 2), otherwise you'd be relying on automation.

This is all a work in progress. Have got the above saved as an .FLP file if anyone wants it (and my rantings are gibberish). Will be refining this over the next couple of weeks.

Wait where the hell is the Dry/wet filter on the Love Philter. I cant find it to the right of the name Wub. Thanks mate and this is a good read Wub big up

Wanting to create an atmosphere similar to VIVEK

Really wanna know how to create that sound on the 2nd bar after the intro
Any help is appreciated

illuem wrote:Wanting to create an atmosphere similar to VIVEK

Really wanna know how to create that sound on the 2nd bar after the intro
Any help is appreciated

Sounds like he threw a square wave LFO on a reese, or automated the volume of it. Something to that effect is where I would start, personally.

man if i had better atmospheres/pads my songs would sound worlds better... something i definitely need to work on

for those looking for a hard hitting sub at low frequency, check out waves loair. definitely provides a huge boost to the sub. combined with compression.