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wilson wrote:

Also, can't help that feel that a lot of the 'discussion' going on in this thread is between people who are actually on the same side fundamentally.

Ultimately yeah. I think we all want the same ultimate result. Better lives for the majority of people. I just don't have faith in washington and thing if any change is gonna happen it's gotta come from the people creating an environment where this greed isn't tolerated.... be that consumer change, or electing new officials.

That video touches on the Dodd-Frank Act which is a prime example of why I have no faith for reform in our government. When something does pass it just gets watered down into nothingness by the republican party. Dodd Frank act is the type of change Occupy Wall Street wants. It would be a fantastic starting point for a large change in our country. Sadly our government has allowed a bill to be destroyed by partisan bullshit and political gimmicks.

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

pkay wrote:I spoke earlier in this thread about lack of trust with our government. Our government is so divided into partisan camps that its proven ineffective of doing much of anything lately. It's a given fact that the republicans will oppose any type of corporate regulation.

Even if Obama wanted to change, had a plan, got it sponsored in congress, the republicans have the power to kill it, and would.

My point in all of this is that we need to stop looking to our current incapable government for change. If we can't rely on them ideally our first option would be to elect new officials who are more capable. That option set aside we have quite a bit of consumer control in our country.

i've no objection to the idea of electing new officials. very few democrats (who hold office) favour corporate regulation. that doesn't mean everybody has to be replaced. politicians are often straws in the wind, and will bend their views if the prevailing political climate changes.

i'm not sure how to apply consumer power to wall street. many of the institutions people would like to change don't even sell anything directly to consumers. who or what would you boycott? and what would you demand before the boycott ends?

pkay wrote:

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

im saying posting a picture of some people in line for starbucks doesnt mean SHIT

Wait! What if we....................................................................occupied wallstreet? o.O

pkay wrote:

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

yo

-boring wrote:

pkay wrote:

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

im saying posting a picture of some people in line for starbucks doesnt mean SHIT

did you follow my flickr link to the rest of the photos? ffs, i was just illustrating a funny little sidenote of that afternoon, while the rest of my photos were put up in an attempt to paint a softer, more human image of the occupy protests than the media does.

posting a photo of the starbucks queue doesnt mean shit, but neither does cussing someone out on a dubstep forum.

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

EXACTLY.

It's a simple difference in attitude to your fellow man. Some seek to ridicule and thus excuse their own apathy (which affords them only enugh energy to insult people on the internet), some try and engage to make even the smallest amount of progress.

I know who I have more respect for.

pkay wrote:let's look for the reality instead of the hype

Says the man picking out the single laughable picture from hundreds of on-point images.

Do you like getting shit wages so that dividends and bonuses can be higher? Is that why you're against people trying to make capitalism fairer? I mean, it's an odd position, but it's the only explanation I can find...

Have you ever been to St Pauls? I work here every day. Do you realise that it's somewhat difficult to get a cup of coffee around here that's not Starbucks, Costas, Pret or Nero? Would you rather protesters took a bus ride so they could get a cup with zero "hypocrisy"?

Isn't it better that an imperfect protest happens than none at all? I absolutely believe in capitalism and I'm down there. All your anti-capitalist shit is null and void... you're just looking for reasons to feel good about not helping your people out.

magma wrote:

-boring wrote:lets look for the bad instead of the good of the protests. lets look for ways to bitch instead of ways to move forward.

fuck you.

EXACTLY.

It's a simple difference in attitude to your fellow man. Some seek to ridicule and thus excuse their own apathy (which affords them only enugh energy to insult people on the internet), some try and engage to make even the smallest amount of progress.

I know who I have more respect for.

Trying to remain impartial here.

That could also be looked at as

Those who know how things work, and know that this probably isn't the best approach.

And those who just jump on it because it looked cool on youtube videos from new york.



I think that before such action is taken, we as people need to look at the situation, discuss and educate about it, and then decide on the best course of action. This whole attitude of protest seems somewhat short-sighted to me.

zerbaman wrote:That could also be looked at as

Those who know how things work, and know that this probably isn't the best approach.

And those who just jump on it because it looked cool on youtube videos from new york.



I think that before such action is taken, we as people need to look at the situation, discuss and educate about it, and then decide on the best course of action. This whole attitude of protest seems somewhat short-sighted to me.

The protest is a chance for conversation at this stage - it has very few demands other than "Come and talk to us to help shape the movement in the people's image."

There are also plenty of people like myself down there - I work in the finance industry. I have studied economics. I know how things work. I know why my wages are kept low and why bonuses aren't extended to "operational" staff like me in the finance industry. I know why all of your wages are kept low to allow shareholders and CEOs bigger dividends and profits... I know the system can be made fairer.

Writing off protesters as jobless crusties is not only needlessly offensive, it's also untrue. I was speaking to one of the guys setting up the media centre on Sunday... he runs his own business, he's clearly not an anti-capitalist. Don't underestimate us, be part of us... help shape us... if you don't feel represented, represent yourself. The human mic is open to all.

magma wrote:

zerbaman wrote:That could also be looked at as

Those who know how things work, and know that this probably isn't the best approach.

And those who just jump on it because it looked cool on youtube videos from new york.



I think that before such action is taken, we as people need to look at the situation, discuss and educate about it, and then decide on the best course of action. This whole attitude of protest seems somewhat short-sighted to me.

The protest is a chance for conversation at this stage - it has very few demands other than "Come and talk to us to help shape the movement in the people's image."

There are also plenty of people like myself down there - I work in the finance industry. I have studied economics. I know how things work. I know why my wages are kept low and why bonuses aren't extended to "operational" staff like me in the finance industry. I know why all of your wages are kept low to allow shareholders and CEOs bigger dividends and profits... I know the system can be made fairer.

Writing off protesters as jobless crusties is not only needlessly offensive, it's also untrue. I was speaking to one of the guys setting up the media centre on Sunday... he runs his own business, he's clearly not an anti-capitalist. Don't underestimate us, be part of us... help shape us... if you don't feel represented, represent yourself. The human mic is open to all.

i see where you're coming from magma, and i dont want to generalize anything to the whole movement, surely there are knowledgeable, genuinely involved people in the occupy movement, but i agree with zerbaman.

i'm nowhere near a political activist but always kept a healthy interest in politics and whatnot and it kind of pisses me off to see all these people that had zero interest in politics, would have laughed at you if you tried to start a discussion on "political" issues a few months ago, some never even voted, and they suddenly are all onto this "fist clenched in the air" bullshit...

the governments that lead us into this mess were all (more or less) democratically elected, maybe the problem lies in the voters (and their general lack of interest in who's governing them ?)

dfaultuzr wrote:

magma wrote:

zerbaman wrote:That could also be looked at as

Those who know how things work, and know that this probably isn't the best approach.

And those who just jump on it because it looked cool on youtube videos from new york.



I think that before such action is taken, we as people need to look at the situation, discuss and educate about it, and then decide on the best course of action. This whole attitude of protest seems somewhat short-sighted to me.

The protest is a chance for conversation at this stage - it has very few demands other than "Come and talk to us to help shape the movement in the people's image."

There are also plenty of people like myself down there - I work in the finance industry. I have studied economics. I know how things work. I know why my wages are kept low and why bonuses aren't extended to "operational" staff like me in the finance industry. I know why all of your wages are kept low to allow shareholders and CEOs bigger dividends and profits... I know the system can be made fairer.

Writing off protesters as jobless crusties is not only needlessly offensive, it's also untrue. I was speaking to one of the guys setting up the media centre on Sunday... he runs his own business, he's clearly not an anti-capitalist. Don't underestimate us, be part of us... help shape us... if you don't feel represented, represent yourself. The human mic is open to all.

i see where you're coming from magma, and i dont want to generalize anything to the whole movement, surely there are knowledgeable, genuinely involved people in the occupy movement, but i agree with zerbaman.

i'm nowhere near a political activist but always kept a healthy interest in politics and whatnot and it kind of pisses me off to see all these people that had zero interest in politics, would have laughed at you if you tried to start a discussion on "political" issues a few months ago, some never even voted, and they suddenly are all onto this "fist clenched in the air" bullshit...

the governments that lead us into this mess were all (more or less) democratically elected, maybe the problem lies in the voters (and their general lack of interest in who's governing them ?)

nail on the head
too many people expect change in politics without partaking in the process

Why do we always focus on the people and not the message?

wilson wrote:Why do we always focus on the people and not the message?

because messages are all well and good, but the people are the ones who need to affect the change, and bitching about something without partaking in it does the exact opposite

This is how the Tea Party started, they were a disorganised rabble before finding a coherent voice in US Govt. ... albeit one that was hijacked by an extremely liberal pro-capitalist agenda...

This movement might become the more considerate version of that...

wilson wrote:Why do we always focus on the people and not the message?

Good point, it seems that Anglo-Saxon culture likes to judge the merit of messages on the basis of the character of who said it

magma wrote:

zerbaman wrote:That could also be looked at as

Those who know how things work, and know that this probably isn't the best approach.

And those who just jump on it because it looked cool on youtube videos from new york.



I think that before such action is taken, we as people need to look at the situation, discuss and educate about it, and then decide on the best course of action. This whole attitude of protest seems somewhat short-sighted to me.

The protest is a chance for conversation at this stage - it has very few demands other than "Come and talk to us to help shape the movement in the people's image."

There are also plenty of people like myself down there - I work in the finance industry. I have studied economics. I know how things work. I know why my wages are kept low and why bonuses aren't extended to "operational" staff like me in the finance industry. I know why all of your wages are kept low to allow shareholders and CEOs bigger dividends and profits... I know the system can be made fairer.

Writing off protesters as jobless crusties is not only needlessly offensive, it's also untrue. I was speaking to one of the guys setting up the media centre on Sunday... he runs his own business, he's clearly not an anti-capitalist. Don't underestimate us, be part of us... help shape us... if you don't feel represented, represent yourself. The human mic is open to all.

I know a fair bit about those things too. I'm not writing them off as that. I'm just saying I think the whole approach could be organized a bit better. In fact, if I was still in the UK, I'd probably be there too.

Like I said, just trying to stay impartial and allow for balanced debate to flow.

test recordings wrote:This is how the Tea Party started, they were a disorganised rabble before finding a coherent voice in US Govt. ... albeit one that was hijacked by an extremely liberal pro-capitalist agenda...

This movement might become the more considerate version of that...

wilson wrote:Why do we always focus on the people and not the message?

Good point, it seems that Anglo-Saxon culture likes to judge the merit of messages on the basis of the character of who said it

no the tea party was the brainchild of fox news and newscorp
they are anything but disorganized and underrepresented both financially and politically

wilson wrote:
Also, can't help that feel that a lot of the 'discussion' going on in this thread is between people who are actually on the same side fundamentally.

exactly.

doesn't mean we have to be unquestioning cheerleaders though.

you need to convince people who agree with your basic principals before you can start to convince people who are fundamentally opposed to you. healthy debate with supporters is a training ground for the proper fight that is coming.

dfaultuzr wrote:it kind of pisses me off to see all these people that had zero interest in politics, would have laughed at you if you tried to start a discussion on "political" issues a few months ago, some never even voted, and they suddenly are all onto this "fist clenched in the air" bullshit...

I can understand that, yeah. I think that's what a lot of people are sceptical about.

Perhaps they didn't have a movement to get fired up about before? Perhaps there wasn't something as universally easy to get on board with as this? The anti-war movement often seems to get hijacked by anti-zionists and conspiracy theorists and can be frustrating to be part of (I've walked away from marches before because of the slogans being chanted "We are all anti war, we are all HEZBOLAH" ?!), anti-capitalist and anarchist protests often seem too fundamentalist and ill-thought-out.... but a protest demanding that capitalism be made to work for the people that fuel it? That bank bailouts shouldn't be funded by slashing public services? That bonuses be clipped and wages increased? That seems an easy one to get on board.

I try to lean towards being optimistic about people who are trying to be positive until they prove themselves incapable... this lot are doing nothing but prove themselves capable. Sensible debates, a proper democratic process and smiling faces... this really is the most promising protest I've ever seen.

I do get why people have the reactions they have... I'm just surprised they'd start sniping this early. It seems purely unconstructive... as if they want this to fail just so they can say "I told you so" to a bunch of strangers on the Internet.