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SKIN E wrote:Incorrect; most people get dressed looking in a mirror thinking "Does this look good enough for me to be seen outside?" not to "be happy", so actually Mason is correct.

Well I feel sad for those people then if they get dressed thinking "do I look acceptable in the eyes of others" rather than thinking "do I look and feel good about/within myself"

Electric_Head wrote:

magma wrote:

SKIN E wrote:Incorrect; most people get dressed looking in a mirror thinking "Does this look good enough for me to be seen outside?" not to "be happy", so actually Mason is correct.

You've apparently never met my girlfriend. She'll get through several outfits whilst spending the day by herself at home. Sometimes she'll just nip to the bathroom and change her clothes because she's bored of looking down at the same top. She likes dressing up. It's a hobby learning how outfits are created and how certain lines and colours work together... in the same way that I trawl hiphop blogs for new rap records, she trawls Swedish fashion blogs looking for new tops... it's exactly the same pursuit.

Does she throw the old outfit in the wash?
Who does the washing?

I do the washing at home and I wouldn't allow that.

Nah, if it's only been worn indoors it goes back in the wardrobe. Honestly, I've never seen a girl get through so many clothes in such a short period of time and one of my ex's was a fashion student. She spends hardly anything on them though - charity shop business everytime. I own about a tenth of the clothing she does, but because I can't be arsed to take enough of an interest it probably cost about 20 times as much.

I knew someone who used to wear a new pair of socks everyday.
Used to throw the old pair away.

Electric_Head wrote:I knew someone who used to wear a new pair of socks everyday.
Used to throw the old pair away.

Dame Dash used to wear a fresh pair of shoes every day.

Bit much..

ADHD at its worst.

Electric_Head wrote:I knew someone who used to wear a new pair of socks everyday.
Used to throw the old pair away.

lol lol lol this made me chuckle

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote:You're trying to link the wrong parts of the analogy - i'm saying that adult is to child as human is to the rest of the animal kingdom (or peacocks in particular if you're not feeling the higher intelligence over apes aspect).

Confidence gained from clothes is hollow and nothing more than a curious leftover of the evolutionary process. The idea that you somehow become a better 'you' because you've put on a particular piece of cloth is utterly backward to me imo.

Nawww... the clothes are a symptom, they're not the cause. You don't gain confidence from wearing whatever is in the latest issue of Vogue; you exude confidence by allowing yourself to stand out from the crowd - however you choose to communicate that, whether it's writing a book, putting graffiti on a wall, singing a song or designing an outfit, it's the same message... "I'm here, I'm happy and I'm confident in my own existence. Fuck me."

I disagree. I remember gaining confidence from buying and wearing my first Ben Sherman shirt when I was 14 or 15. I wasn't exuding confidence by allowing myself to stand out, on the contrary, I gained (hollow) confidence from the shirt because it allowed me to fit in. Perhaps I need to distinguish between following trends and following fashion. Perhaps there is no difference... Either way from where I stand a lot of these fashion types aren't happy or confident in their own existence, they're only pretending to be.

magma wrote:I see the basics of dressing as fairly similar to daily showering or eating - wearing decent clothes makes me feel that I'm communicating a modicum of "control" over myself. "Hey everyone, I'm managing to exist in the modern world without letting myself fall apart. Fuck me!"

I see it in almost the same way as far as the showering/eating thing goes, but for me it's more like "Hey everyone, due to the rigour of societal protocol I have dressed in clean, non offensive clothes out of respect for the people i'm with. If you want to fuck me, impress me."
To me, some of the people in the images posted in this thread are saying "Hey everyone, I have deep seated neuroses brought about by an off-key childhood. If you want to fuck me please look similar or at least have some self harm scars."

magma wrote:Confidence equally doesn't come from the record collection, but it's communicated by getting behind some decks and playing those records to people. I don't really see any functional difference between playing records in public and stepping out in 'noticeable' clothes... just a taste one.

Perhaps not a functional difference, no, but the differences are many. // But, going with that, would a successful DJ buy/play music that they didn't really like just because the crowd might?

particle-jim wrote:

Laszlo wrote:No i'm saying confidence gained purely from wearing a particular... whatever is hollow.
Confidence gained from expressing yourself, even if that's from just presenting yourself in a certain way, is never hollow.

The line is a blurry one, chums, and i'm not sure i'm explaining myself very well.
Was it Magma that said about you can look shit in expensive clothes if you don't carry it well but some people in Primark clothes belong on the catwalk?? Well, the confidence comes from within. If you're a shook one in a bin bag your a shook one in Armani.


Basically, confidence is not a prerequisite for expressing yourself.

I fully get were you're coming from and I agree actually, simply adorning yourself with flashy things in the hope that people will see you in a different light and that this will make you feel better about yourself then it's definitely hollow (for this reason, I couldn't give two shits about what label my clothes are), however if you dress in certain way to express yourself/your personality then it's not hollow, I dress in a particular way to look and feel like me, that to me is an extension of who I am and how I identify myself, the days I feel I'm more confident as a result of how I'm dressed are the days I feel I most look like me (if that makes sense, probably doesn't)

Yeah, I agree with that but as i've said it's the peacocking, in any form, that I see as almost an affront to the human evolutionary process.

Laszlo wrote:I disagree. I remember gaining confidence from buying and wearing my first Ben Sherman shirt when I was 14 or 15. I wasn't exuding confidence by allowing myself to stand out, on the contrary, I gained (hollow) confidence from the shirt because it allowed me to fit in. Perhaps I need to distinguish between following trends and following fashion. Perhaps there is no difference... Either way from where I stand a lot of these fashion types aren't happy or confident in their own existence, they're only pretending to be.

Hmm. Just because you were pretending doesn't mean that everyone is. You were possibly misunderstanding fashion because you weren't interested in fashion - in the same way that someone who misunderstands music might blast "cool" RnB from their phone speakers at the back of the bus - feigning confidence does not equal having confidence and, a lot of the time, it's pretty easy to spot that lack of confidence even when comparing two people dressed in the same threads. Humans are complex - to generalise that everyone wears fashionable clothes for the same reason that you once wore fashionable clothes is a bit of a stretch.

I see it in almost the same way as far as the showering/eating thing goes, but for me it's more like "Hey everyone, due to the rigour of societal protocol I have dressed in clean, non offensive clothes out of respect for the people i'm with. If you want to fuck me, impress me."
To me, some of the people in the images posted in this thread are saying "Hey everyone, I have deep seated neuroses brought about by an off-key childhood. If you want to fuck me please look similar or at least have some self harm scars."

You communicate differently to them and probably have different things to communicate. Modes of fashion should probably be thought of like genres of music or languages - I don't really understand what makes people want to listen to Elbow, but I don't think they're bad people... they just speak a different musical language to me. Some people get hard for buildings they've never stepped foot in. Some people walk around wearing slogans to let people know what movies they like as a cue to their personality. Some people will even pay three figures for a plain white t shirt. I'm convinced the world wouldn't be a better place in the slightest if we all dressed in inoffensively similar ways like 70s sci-fi imagined us doing, spoke the same language or listened to the same music. Humanity's beauty is in its diversity... why not celebrate the fact that you can walk down the road and encounter people who are so different you find them slightly difficult to take in?

Perhaps not a functional difference, no, but the differences are many. // But, going with that, would a successful DJ buy/play music that they didn't really like just because the crowd might?

What are the differences though, really? I honestly think I get the same joy from hearing certain records as my girl or my old housemate do from just looking at certain clothes. We're wired differently, but the experience seems incredibly similar... I've met plenty of people who think I'm deeply sad for owning 35,000 records, CD Decks and a rack of synths when I've never played out to more than 50 people or released a record... it's a hobby... it simply makes me feel great and that's the only justification anyone needs for doing anything (as long as it doesn't directly affect anyone else)

Laszlo wrote:Yeah, I agree with that but as i've said it's the peacocking, in any form, that I see as almost an affront to the human evolutionary process.

But why? We're evolved beings and we've clearly ended up, after millions of years, being pretty aware of our appearance. You seem to be saying that human evolution is an affront to human evolution. This is who we are. We're vain, self-conscious, generous, greedy, extroverted introverts and no single one of us suits any single definition of "humanity". We're fucking beautiful, even if we're wearing bright green ski boots in August.

Don't hate on people who follow/like fashion, each to their own, but I'm the kid from the dump with the brown trousers. Or something.

Comfort > Style

magma - you're killing it

I've typed out like 3 replies and then everytime one of your posts pops up and says exactly what I wanted to say but more thoroughly and concisely

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote:I disagree. I remember gaining confidence from buying and wearing my first Ben Sherman shirt when I was 14 or 15. I wasn't exuding confidence by allowing myself to stand out, on the contrary, I gained (hollow) confidence from the shirt because it allowed me to fit in. Perhaps I need to distinguish between following trends and following fashion. Perhaps there is no difference... Either way from where I stand a lot of these fashion types aren't happy or confident in their own existence, they're only pretending to be.

Hmm. Just because you were pretending doesn't mean that everyone is. You were possibly misunderstanding fashion because you weren't interested in fashion - in the same way that someone who misunderstands music might blast "cool" RnB from their phone speakers at the back of the bus - feigning confidence does not equal having confidence and, a lot of the time, it's pretty easy to spot that lack of confidence even when comparing two people dressed in the same threads. Humans are complex - to generalise that everyone wears fashionable clothes for the same reason that you once wore fashionable clothes is a bit of a stretch.

I am not even remotely generalising. It was you that said that clothes are the symptom of confidence, not the cause. I took that as a generalisation and offered my anecdote as a way of explaining how some people view the situation. If I took it as such it's fair to assume that others have and do take it in the same way.
My point was that I wasn't feigning confidence but gaining short-lived confidence by fitting in, not standing out, which again is contrary to your theory.

magma wrote:I'm convinced the world wouldn't be a better place in the slightest if we all dressed in inoffensively similar ways like 70s sci-fi imagined us doing, spoke the same language or listened to the same music. Humanity's beauty is in its diversity... why not celebrate the fact that you can walk down the road and encounter people who are so different you find them slightly difficult to take in?

I'm not for a moment suggesting that we should all dress the same like we're in some dystopian, eastern block movie, just that I find it a little sad when I see people trying ever so hard to stand out as if they're some unique snowflake. It's usually, in my experience, a tell-tale sign of of mental anguish, so when I say it's sad I mean I feel for them... a bit like the mother/housewife at the end of Requiem For A Dream.

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote: Perhaps not a functional difference, no, but the differences are many. // But, going with that, would a successful DJ buy/play music that they didn't really like just because the crowd might?

What are the differences though, really?

You're asking me the differences between DJing and walking down the street in fashionable clothes?? Remember i'm very pedantic so i'll save you the long list of literal differences.

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote:Yeah, I agree with that but as i've said it's the peacocking, in any form, that I see as almost an affront to the human evolutionary process.

But why? We're evolved beings and we've clearly ended up, after millions of years, being pretty aware of our appearance. You seem to be saying that human evolution is an affront to human evolution.

No, i'm saying that peacocking is a useless dead-end of the evolutionary process a bit like nipples on men. We are still capable of throwing handfuls of our own poo at each other when we're displeased but we don't because we're beyond that. If we, as intelligent adults, can conceptualise why we do these things then really we should be able to control them and move beyond. So, in my own opinion, I just see it as unnecessary child-like behaviour that continues to stunt the development of humanity.


Good grief, all that cut and pasting little quote boxes was jarring!

magma wrote:

Electric_Head wrote:I knew someone who used to wear a new pair of socks everyday.
Used to throw the old pair away.

Dame Dash used to wear a fresh pair of shoes every day.

Bit much..

I remember watching him perform that vulgar act on MTV bragging about popping tags, well, the financial repercussions of being reckless caught up with his dumb arse.

Laszlo wrote: You're asking me the differences between DJing and walking down the street in fashionable clothes?? Remember i'm very pedantic so i'll save you the long list of literal differences.

Well literal differences aren't very useful for the sake of argument. What are the experiential differences? You choose a piece of art that someone else designed (a record, a t shirt, a car) and then parade it in public as a reflection of your own personality.

Laszlo wrote:No, i'm saying that peacocking is a useless dead-end of the evolutionary process a bit like nipples on men. We are still capable of throwing handfuls of our own poo at each other when we're displeased but we don't because we're beyond that. If we, as intelligent adults, can conceptualise why we do these things then really we should be able to control them and move beyond. So, in my own opinion, I just see it as unnecessary child-like behaviour that continues to stunt the development of humanity.

However much we like to think that we're governed by our higher brain functions, none of us can step away from the urge to judge people based on first impressions. However much it disappoints me, I will make snap, subconscious assumptions about people based on how they're dressed, what music they listen to, how their house is decorated or how they use language... it's not a choice I make, but it will happen. Conducting myself in a manner that assumes this of other people seems only logical.

We've taught ourselves over 10,000 years of rampant civil and limited physical evolution to be ashamed of our lower brain functions even though they govern the vast majority of anything most of us ever do. I'm not sure why we should be ashamed of something that makes up so much of us... like Catholics telling us we're evil for having sexual thoughts, intellectuals telling us we're bad for having low-brow thoughts are imposing unrealistic expectations on humanity. Humanity will never be anything other than human... and we've made "human" a synonym for "imperfect" for very sound reasons.

Good grief, all that cut and pasting little quote boxes was jarring!

We can agree on that.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that we should all dress the same like we're in some dystopian, eastern block movie

Dior Homme's Fall 2013 Collection is...

Looks like kraftwerk the musical

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote: You're asking me the differences between DJing and walking down the street in fashionable clothes?? Remember i'm very pedantic so i'll save you the long list of literal differences.

Well literal differences aren't very useful for the sake of argument. What are the experiential differences? You choose a piece of art that someone else designed (a record, a t shirt, a car) and then parade it in public as a reflection of your own personality.

Laszlo wrote:No, i'm saying that peacocking is a useless dead-end of the evolutionary process a bit like nipples on men. We are still capable of throwing handfuls of our own poo at each other when we're displeased but we don't because we're beyond that. If we, as intelligent adults, can conceptualise why we do these things then really we should be able to control them and move beyond. So, in my own opinion, I just see it as unnecessary child-like behaviour that continues to stunt the development of humanity.

However much we like to think that we're governed by our higher brain functions, none of us can step away from the urge to judge people based on first impressions. However much it disappoints me, I will make snap, subconscious assumptions about people based on how they're dressed, what music they listen to, how their house is decorated or how they use language... it's not a choice I make, but it will happen. Conducting myself in a manner that assumes this of other people seems only logical.

We've taught ourselves over 10,000 years of rampant civil and limited physical evolution to be ashamed of our lower brain functions even though they govern the vast majority of anything most of us ever do. I'm not sure why we should be ashamed of something that makes up so much of us... like Catholics telling us we're evil for having sexual thoughts, intellectuals telling us we're bad for having low-brow thoughts are imposing unrealistic expectations on humanity. Humanity will never be anything other than human... and we've made "human" a synonym for "imperfect" for very sound reasons.

Good grief, all that cut and pasting little quote boxes was jarring!

We can agree on that.

Re the DJ thing - I'd personally see more of a link if the fashionista in question was walking down the street with a huge wardrobe of clothes they could change into and slightly augment the colours/patterns of at a moments notice. I know i'm being particularly obtuse on this point but i'm unable to get past it

"However much we like to think that we're governed by our higher brain functions, none of us can step away from the urge to judge people based on first impressions." I believe, beyond question, that this is possible.
"We've taught ourselves over 10,000 years of rampant civil and limited physical evolution to be ashamed of our lower brain functions even though they govern the vast majority of anything most of us ever do." Again, this can be overcome.
I'm not saying people are bad for having 'low-brow thoughts' or peacocking just, and let me emphasise this, that I find it unfortunate.

The DJ/Fashion analogy was a loose one at best... we could argue semantics all day, but I was really just trying to find an analogy which suited the common interests in this community. I think we think about records in a similar way to how a lot of people think about fashion... not that the physical act of pulling on a t shirt is the same as playing a record.

The main point is that people buy and play records for incredibly personal reasons; even when they're buying the same record. The assumption in this thread seems to be that people who worry about fashion are all a certain type of person (shallow, self-loathing, materialistic) - I'm trying to point out that we're not. We're as varied as "music fans" or "art lovers". I can be tempted into some pretty high-brow thought and conversation, but it doesn't stop me checking the mirror before I leave my flat or enjoying the "What Sneakers You Wearin'?" thread.

I'm not saying people are bad for having 'low-brow thoughts' or peacocking just, and let me emphasise this, that I find it unfortunate.

"However much we like to think that we're governed by our higher brain functions, none of us can step away from the urge to judge people based on first impressions." I believe, beyond question, that this is possible.

You just haven't achieved it yet?

I've hit a perfect storm in my footwear wear-and-tear and need to buy three pairs of shoes this weekend. Work shoes, running shoes and everyday trainers.

I'm genuinely excited.

Edit: Fuck, that was supposed to be in the Happy thread.

magma wrote:The main point is that people buy and play records for incredibly personal reasons; even when they're buying the same record. The assumption in this thread seems to be that people who worry about fashion are all a certain type of person (shallow, self-loathing, materialistic) - I'm trying to point out that we're not. I can be tempted into some pretty high-brow thought and conversation, but it doesn't stop me checking the mirror before I leave my flat.

I do hope you don't think that i'm saying that all people that follow fashion are that one type of person. Sorry to anyone who thought I was saying that but there's been a lot of long posts and my original sentiment was

Laszlo wrote:If you buy clothes because you like the aesthetic aspect of it, fair enough more power to you, but if you buy something because you think it might get you laid, well, I find that a little tragic.

magma wrote:

Laszlo wrote: I'm not saying people are bad for having 'low-brow thoughts' or peacocking just, and let me emphasise this, that I find it unfortunate.

"However much we like to think that we're governed by our higher brain functions, none of us can step away from the urge to judge people based on first impressions." I believe, beyond question, that this is possible.

You just haven't achieved it yet?

Well, i'd argue that finding something unfortunate about a person in regard to their own self-perception and knowledge of the world isn't really judging them. It's more of a comment on human nature rather than the individual. Like, I don't judge a crackhead. I just find their suffering unfortunate.

this thread became tl:dr