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Reverb wrote:they never worked for me :'(

You alkalinity was probably off.

Try poking them with a sterile needle.

You're forgetting that even if it is incredibly unlikely that life started through chemical and molecular interactions, the suggested timespan for this happening is hundreds of millions of years. Every second there most have been billions if not trillions of chemical reactions leading to polymerization and the formation of large organic molecules.
Imagine how many reactions must have occurred and then it doesn't seem far fetched that life started in this way at all.

It has been observed that in conditions mimicking that of the oceans of the time that spheres of phospholipids form. self replicating molecules such as DNA and RNA have also been shown to form.

Without any disrespect to Ketamine, without university level biology/biochemistry education, that video will seem like a good explanation.
How long does he observe the test tube for? What if he observed an ocean instead of a test tube?

djredi2step wrote:
It has been observed that in conditions mimicking that of the oceans of the time that spheres of phospholipids form. self replicating molecules such as DNA and RNA have also been shown to form.

The interesting thing about the formation of DNA/RNA strands is that the structures themselves are in a rather high energy state which would suggest they would not form naturally without some kind of major energy kick - which many are saying may have been caused by meteorites, storms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc.

hugh wrote:

djredi2step wrote:
It has been observed that in conditions mimicking that of the oceans of the time that spheres of phospholipids form. self replicating molecules such as DNA and RNA have also been shown to form.

The interesting thing about the formation of DNA/RNA strands is that the structures themselves are in a rather high energy state which would suggest they would not form naturally without some kind of major energy kick - which many are saying may have been caused by meteorites, storms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc.

Or Hydrothermal vents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrotherm ... l_theories

out of the singularity we came, into the singularity we go

d-T-r wrote:out of the singularity we came, into the singularity we go

djredi2step wrote:Without any disrespect to Ketamine, without university level biology/biochemistry education, that video will seem like a good explanation.

Except, I have that. Biotech Undergrad.

And, it was precisely a class on DNA (which eventually included full out Gel Electrophoresis for DNA extraction) and 3 years PT lab work culturing genetically-modified Yeasts (story for another time), that has in no uncertain terms convinced me Life was setup by Intelligence.

It’s entirely too organized to be what it is, on ANY LEVEL, microscopic (cells) to macroscopic (interdependence of ocean life organisms) to have become that way by a chance chemical interaction.

Fair enough. I'm only in my 1st year doing Biology so I don't think I can really provide an argument to all of yours!
What's your opinion on what i said in the previous paragraphs?

ketamine wrote:It’s entirely too organized to be what it is, on ANY LEVEL, microscopic (cells) to macroscopic (interdependence of ocean life organisms) to have become that way by a chance chemical interaction.

the front of a tapestry looks beautifully organized, flip it over and all you see is a chaotic mesh

alan watts puts it much more elequently..

i'm unsure of my point tbh

ketamine wrote:

djredi2step wrote:Without any disrespect to Ketamine, without university level biology/biochemistry education, that video will seem like a good explanation.

Except, I have that. Biotech Undergrad.

And, it was precisely a class on DNA (which eventually included full out Gel Electrophoresis for DNA extraction) and 3 years PT lab work culturing genetically-modified Yeasts (story for another time), that has in no uncertain terms convinced me Life was setup by Intelligence.

It’s entirely too organized to be what it is, on ANY LEVEL, microscopic (cells) to macroscopic (interdependence of ocean life organisms) to have become that way by a chance chemical interaction.

I would agree to an extent, but if you have done a Biotech degree then you should realise how basically every process in the body is a process that is driven by the need for equilibrium. Similarly, you should also know the body has a lot of crap in it that isn't necessarily perfect and there is no way a "designer" would incorporate these faults into his design. Our cells inability to removed sequestered toxic anomalies? There is no "design" in that. There is no design in the way we have thousands of strings of DNA that do basically nothing. There is no design in a lot of it, which is why it is so amazing in the first place.
What I believe we do have is a constitution of cohabitational cells that have evolved over many years into a symbiotic state that benefits all those cells incorporated into that system. A cell randomly genetically mutates to be able to take on twice as much ATP, and over many years, another mutation may occur whereby this ATP can be delivered faster and without nearly as much need for strong pH gradient. Then the cell culture that has received this ATP boost may be able to move its flagella faster which in turn allows it to gather food faster, which in turn compounds it's genetic and structural dominance over the other lifeforms.

These increases in complexity simply allow a momentum to gather that in turn propagate more opportunities for more future beneficial mutations.
I understand that life seems so ridiculously complex that it almost seems impossible that it could have happened by chance, but then you really need to think about the size of the universe and you realise life is more of an inevitability.

A biologist who denies evolution is like an astronomer who thinks the earth is the center of the universe.

ketamine wrote:Biotech Undergrad.

And, it was precisely a class on DNA (which eventually included full out Gel Electrophoresis for DNA extraction) and 3 years PT lab work culturing genetically-modified Yeasts (story for another time), that has in no uncertain terms convinced me Life was setup by Intelligence.

It’s entirely too organized to be what it is, on ANY LEVEL, microscopic (cells) to macroscopic (interdependence of ocean life organisms) to have become that way by a chance chemical interaction.

you mean the chances have to be very very small? not a problem, because the time available is very very long, and size of the oceans (and of the universe, if it comes to that) is very very big.

we have a general theory (chemical chance) for the origin of life. there are details still to be worked out (just like almost any scientific theory). you're saying "it'll never work". yes, it might not work. your alternative suggestion is intelligent design. so, how does that explanation work? in any detail at all? are you discarding scientific explations altogether, or just using divine intervention as an explanation where there are gaps in scientific knowledge? when there's a gap, what explantion do you offer instead? if all you can say is that it's something we don't understand, you've explained nothing. basically, you haven't offered an alternate explanation of the origin of life at all, even in outline. chemical chance is the only explanation that actually is a possible explanation, and hasn't yet been proved wrong.

Dub_freak wrote:A biologist who denies evolution is like an astronomer who thinks the earth is the center of the universe.

This.

If god made everything then who made god?

Ketamine?

nowaysj wrote:Ketamine?

In his head, yes he did.

why do evolutionists get so uptight about this shit?

i dont think ket is saying that he doesnt believe in evolution, im guessing he's a deist.