Dubstepforum.com

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:57 pm**

Joe Muggs wrote:
Battle Gong wrote: but by way of example i think its El'b that done a cumba track (popular music from the coast of colombia)
I think you mean Cumbia, don't you?

Battle Gong wrote:i guess its a fine line between influence and parody...

...or even insult ha ha

Yeah, and you know what, parody isn't always a bad thing. Now of course it's great when Geiom gets involved with a serious Pakistani singer, or Shackleton learns Turkish instruments, or Blackdown gets his Cheng on - but as well as that I actually REALLY LIKE a lot of the slightly cheesy sampling of other ethnic music that goes on in dubstep - especially a lot of the earliest dubstep - and in grime. Stuff that literally is ripped from a kung fu movie or video game or some cheap arsed tape off the market or whatever. Why? Because it's CHEEKY. It's not done in the same way as those worthy vapid house of horrors hippie dippy Hotel Costes or whatever chillout albums, where 'foreign' = 'exotic' = 'spiritual' = 'like really mellow, yeah?'. It's done because the producer thinks "that sounds good - I'll have that!" - in the same spirit as hip hop or old school hardcore take/took sounds from wherever and whenever, purely on the basis of whether they have an instant impact on the dancer. And in some senses that rough'n'ready - even ignorant - approach to sampling is actually "honest" in that it reflects the environment the music is created in. London is one of the most multicultural cities in the world, and (unless we live in South Kensington or something) we're bombarded with a constant mish-mash of African, Arabic, S American, Carribean and whatever else music plus all the bastardised versions of other cultures' sounds that soundtrack adverts, movies and video games - so it's not surprising that that completely bastardized and totally "inauthentic" collage finds its way into the city's own music. Jamaican music's always done that, whether it's American R&B in the 60s, kung fu movies in the 70s or video games in the 80s - so why shouldn't British music?

All I'm saying I think is that any approach - serious and well-resarched or stooooopid and bodged together - CAN work, it's all down to who does it and whether they do it with guts and spirit.

ha ha, yeah, cumbia. got me.

i even checked i hadnt written colombia with a "u" myself b4 gettin on my high horse ...but shudve checked 4 typos elsewhere too i guess ha ha

anyway, yeah. really good point. totally feeling the eclectic use and appropriation of sounds in this way. tho i seen better examples of it in grime than dubstep (the latter maybe takes itself too seriously)

i guess like "curry" is a brit's favourite dish (and doesnt ressemble anything much what u'd find in india) this is just a reflection of the cosmopolitan, post-post-modern world we live in where anything goes with anything.

hmmm, yeah. what can i say. that shit is as real as anything else and i cant dis on it.

but i wasnt really talking about that. they aint settin out to b authentic, they just throwing together shit they like. and ending up more authentic bcos of it.

man, i dunno, i dont really want 2get into naming names any more than i already did. but i think u know the shit i'm talking about. the kind of track that sets out to have an 'eastern vibe' but is not really of one style or another, and is called "temple ball" or sumthing. or am i just inventing this stuf?

ah fuck it. its not really important at the end of the day. if people want to make that shit then cool for them.

but i still aint buying it.

er....unless its good ha ha

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:00 pm**

Slothrop wrote: If you're going for obviously inauthentic stuff, then the tune has to stand or fall on whether it's any good or not.

true, but that's the case whatever; even if it IS a genuine mongolian throat singer and not a vst plug in, u still aint gonna buy it if it sounds shit.

EDIT: by the way, how do u quote more than one person on the same post?

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:07 pm**

Battle Gong wrote:
Slothrop wrote: If you're going for obviously inauthentic stuff, then the tune has to stand or fall on whether it's any good or not.
true, but that's the case whatever; even if it IS a genuine mongolian throat singer and not a vst plug in, u still aint gonna buy it if it sounds shit.

WHERE DO I GET A THROAT SINGING PLUGIN????

Battle Gong wrote:EDIT: by the way, how do u quote more than one person on the same post?

I would open the thread in two separate windows/tabs, click 'quote' on the relevant posts, then you can cut & paste the quote from one reply into the other, if that makes any sense.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:12 pm**

sort of makes sense. thanks

er, i was joking about the throat singer vst, obviously, but....

http://www.music-boss.com/freeware_plug ... y_lama.htm

never tried it myself. let me know how u get on

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:31 pm**

I'm sorry about classifying it as 'arabic', I had no idea he spoke hindu.
Thanks for the advice tho. Greatly appreciated.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:40 pm**

Battle Gong wrote:
Slothrop wrote: If you're going for obviously inauthentic stuff, then the tune has to stand or fall on whether it's any good or not.
true, but that's the case whatever; even if it IS a genuine mongolian throat singer and not a vst plug in, u still aint gonna buy it if it sounds shit.

I don't know - I think it might be possible for a mediocre record to do better than it otherwise would because it's got an interesting / authentic aspect to it - "yeah, it's totally cool, he actually went out to the amazon rainforest and, like, totally recorded these totally unknown pygmies doing some, like, totally mystical chanting over his, like, tepid trip hop breaks..." Maybe you wouldn't buy it, maybe I wouldn't buy it, but maybe other people would.

But yeah, that's talking about things becoming dinner party / chillout stuff rather than club tunes... I guess punters in a club aren't going to give a tune leeway because it's 'more authentic' or something, either it works or it doesn't.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:16 pm**

actually bothered to check the geiom track in question in the end. its ok. perefectly respectable. but will probably stick with unadulterated nusrat fateh aleh khan - or however u spell his name - all the same tho anyway. thanks

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:56 am**

upreal wrote:I'm sorry about classifying it as 'arabic', I had no idea he spoke hindu.
Thanks for the advice tho. Greatly appreciated.

hinDI is a language; hinDU is a religion.

Battle Gong wrote: nusrat fateh aleh khan - or however u spell his name

nusrat fateh ALI khan. also peep his son, rahat fateh ali khan.

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:02 pm**

Before using any sample it is necessary to understand the whole history of that music - yes absolutely. I studied for 22 years the oud (lute), under Hamil al Haq at the Fez Institute of Interesting & Exotic Instruments That Are Totally Unplayable - I got to grade 2 (there are 73)! Hamil said I lacked aptitude

Back in the day - Tony Blackburn used to consider Reggae as "ethnic" music. He refused to play Bob Marley even

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:28 pm**

TeReKeTe wrote: hinDI is a language; hinDU is a religion.

sorry again.

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:41 pm**

What do peeps think of this one?

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:44 pm**

upreal wrote:
TeReKeTe wrote: hinDI is a language; hinDU is a religion.
sorry again.

Mate - don't worry! You started an interesting thread. Most people on here have probably never even heard of Olomouc

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:17 pm**

Tomity wrote:What do peeps think of this one?

I think it's pretty ill. I also think that i'm getting really sick of descriptions of tunes in hindi/punjabi/anything else spoken by brown people as "Arabic" or "persian."

I stand in the middle of the discussion regarding knowledge of the music; i've played percussion for the last 21 years, including tabla, dholki, dhol... and one of the things that drew me to dubstep was how wicked the percussion programming was in 'twissup vip' and 'alien tongue'... and i was pretty sure loefah and pinch weren't old-school tabla heads.

but you know what? neither are most bhangra producers.

I'm not surprised, not in the slightest, that Numaestro has an oud background - his and 23hz' tunes are absolutely KILLER and there's such a deep sense of place and space in 'em that it makes total sense.

but similarly-- if Geiom was a white kid from New Jersey rather than someone who "speaks the language", from listening to his tunes i'd think that he had great respect for what was going on, rhythmically and vocally-- which is how pinch's tunes strike me. 'Qawwali' captures the intense, meditative state of a qawwali, without using any of the real elements of them (save for the harmonium.) That's artistry right there.

So it's the end result i'm interested in-- i could give fuck all about where or who it comes from. i get sent loads of quasi-indian-influenced dubstep--some that's crap, some that's great, and it makes very little difference whether it comes from a brown face or a white face. authenticity based on that is out the window; creativity and a ear for what matters (and, in the case of vocals--the language) are what makes them work.

Posted: **Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:10 pm**

Tomity wrote:What do peeps think of this one?

dont like it much. kind of what i meant by chakra-lounge. the geiom track is much better

and no, i dont know shit about persian music, or indian for that matter, but those vocals sound more like the latter to me. wunt u check this kind of shit b4 writing such a confident review? i guess the reality is the average boomkat customer really couldnt give a fuck where its from

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:02 pm**

just heard abou D2E3 and gonna check all this out too, i like folk
where's the flogging molly remixer?

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:19 pm**

Battle Gong wrote:
Tomity wrote:What do peeps think of this one?
dont like it much. kind of what i meant by chakra-lounge. the geiom track is much better

and no, i dont know shit about persian music, or indian for that matter, but those vocals sound more like the latter to me. wunt u check this kind of shit b4 writing such a confident review? i guess the reality is the average boomkat customer really couldnt give a fuck where its from

You seem to be making so many assumptions. You admit you know little about the ethnic influences yet you're confident to assert that you know more than the boomkat employee who wrote the review. You also make assumptions regarding the source of the sample, who knows what influences have played upon the original music? The history of music is a dissemnation of ideas after all. The idea of 'authentic' music I find hard to grasp or agree to.

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:27 pm**

Jubscarz wrote:
Battle Gong wrote:
Tomity wrote:What do peeps think of this one?
dont like it much. kind of what i meant by chakra-lounge. the geiom track is much better

and no, i dont know shit about persian music, or indian for that matter, but those vocals sound more like the latter to me. wunt u check this kind of shit b4 writing such a confident review? i guess the reality is the average boomkat customer really couldnt give a fuck where its from
You seem to be making so many assumptions. You admit you know little about the ethnic influences yet you're confident to assert that you know more than the boomkat employee who wrote the review. You also make assumptions regarding the source of the sample, who knows what influences have played upon the original music? The history of music is a dissemnation of ideas after all. The idea of 'authentic' music I find hard to grasp or agree to.

A> firstly I'm making assumptions based on sum1 else's post above, TeReKeTe's, who apparently knows what he's talking about, who was saying that this ISNT persian

B> what does 'ethnic influences' mean? surely all music identifiable with a particular place of origin could be classed as ethnic. including bethoven

C> perhaps i was being modest when i said i dont know shit

D> if u read my above posts in this thread i make clear that 4me 'authentic' doesnt mean sticking to what's expected of u bcos of yr ethnic background, skin colour, language or whatever. i think its sumthing else harder to define, like a purity of artistic intent...doing what u feel inside rather than "0h, I'm gonna make me one of them type tunes now..."

E> but yes, I admit. the sample could easily be of an iranian singing in punjabi or hindi (I wouldnt know the difference either). i got some 'fake' bollywood records from thailand, and u could argue that grime is just 'fake' hip hop...a non english speaking person wouldnt know the difference between US hip hop and UK grime.

but what i was commenting on was the confident, assertive way in which the boomkat review was written - THIS IS PERSIAN - while the evidence suggests something to the contrary. maybe it iIS persian after all, and the reviewer took this info from the label's press release cos its a featured artist like on the geiom track...but i think its more likely just a sample that even the guy who sampled it doesnt particularly know in what language its being sung and that the press release made no mention of its origins

but yes, u r right. i'm making assumptions.

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:37 pm**

About time people got over the whole idea of what's culturally authentic. All these different influences and cultures are just part of the bigger picture, human heritage. Andalusia is a prime example of the inter-relatedness of “eastern” and “western” culture. The moors were there for over five hundred years, and their influence on Spanish culture is still visible today. It’s a fallacy to talk in terms of western and eastern civilisation anyway. Who’s to say someone is more or less qualified to draw on other cultures than others. I saw Khalid a few years ago and it was rubbish, great vocals but the accompaniment sounded like an old Phil Collins backing track, what does that say for the idea of cultural authenticity? Listen to half the so-called world music out there, it’s just insipid shite made for a middle class western audience. Go to the Middle East and you’ll find hardly any CDs of traditional music and what you do find is mostly of the above variety and sold to tourists.

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:02 pm**

thecrane wrote:About time people got over the whole idea of what's culturally authentic. All these different influences and cultures are just part of the bigger picture, human heritage. Andalusia is a prime example of the inter-relatedness of “eastern” and “western” culture. The moors were there for over five hundred years, and their influence on Spanish culture is still visible today. It’s a fallacy to talk in terms of western and eastern civilisation anyway. Who’s to say someone is more or less qualified to draw on other cultures than others. I saw Khalid a few years ago and it was rubbish, great vocals but the accompaniment sounded like an old Phil Collins backing track, what does that say for the idea of cultural authenticity? Listen to half the so-called world music out there, it’s just insipid shite made for a middle class western audience. Go to the Middle East and you’ll find hardly any CDs of traditional music and what you do find is mostly of the above variety and sold to tourists.

agreed. but i think everyone else who posted on this thread is pretty much agreed on this too tho.

the people who need to get over the idea of what's culturally authentic are, thankfully, not reading this forum.

they're sittin in BNP HQ inventing some mythology about their racial purity.

British? pure?

Posted: **Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:17 pm**

The BNP are a horrible organisation. izan's in suits.

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