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looking back at what we've been saying it looks like this to me

I made a case against comedy music - you argued against that. The way you argue against it is to say that serious po-faced music can fall into the same pitfalls I said comedy music did. But I think comedy music has to fall into those pitfalls by definition, as its grounded in whatever it references. Shitmat might succeed in what he sets out to do, but I think what he sets out to do is much much easier and of lesser value than what a "serious, po-faced" artist might set out to achieve. It's far easier to ridicule than it is to make a serious attempt to contribute. Maybe someone could do both at the same time, but I'm dubious.

shonky wrote:Hawerchuk succeeds in making me laugh (which he set out to do), most of the former just leave me cold and bored (which presumably they didn't)

so I would totally accept this. Hawerchuk succeeds, and most of those who set out to do something serious don't, but I'm still far more interested in that slight minority of folks in that bracket who do succeed. as an aside I've never been arguing for "tastefulness" in dance music either, although it might have appeared like that I suppose just because most of the stuff I really am arguing against revels in its perceived anarchic anti-conformism (although most of the time again it just sounds contrived and slightly childish to me). If I was I'd probably just listen to new broken beat and nothing else.

back to square one I guess, but I've enjoyed talking anyway. much more interesting than just bigging stuff up or down eh

UFO over easy wrote:looking back at what we've been saying it looks like this to me

I made a case against comedy music - you argued against it. The way you argue against it is to say that serious po-faced music can fall into the same pitfalls I said comedy music did. But I think comedy music has to fall into those pitfalls by definition, as its grounded in whatever it references. Shitmat might succeed in what he sets out to do, but I think what he sets out to do is much much easier and of lesser value than what a "serious, po-faced" artist might set out to achieve. It's far easier to ridicule than it is to make a serious attempt to contribute. Maybe someone could do both at the same time, but I'm dubious.

shonky wrote:Hawerchuk succeeds in making me laugh (which he set out to do), most of the former just leave me cold and bored (which presumably they didn't)

so I would totally accept this. Hawerchuk succeeds, and most of those who set out to do something real don't, but I'm still far more interested in that slight minority of folks in that bracket who do succeed. as an aside I've never been arguing for "tastefulness" in dance music either, although it might have appeared like that I suppose just because most of the stuff I really am arguing against revels in its perceived anti-conformism (although most of the time again it just sounds contrived and slightly childish to me). If I was I'd probably just listen to new broken beat and nothing else.

back to square one I guess, but I've enjoyed talking anyway. much more interesting than just bigging stuff up or down eh

yeah big up

edited my post a bit - didn't mean to say hawerchuk isn't doing anything "real"

i reckon humour is one of the most important parts of music and life in general, i can't understand why music that incorporates it is somehow less "real"... terms like that imply a kind of tastefulness ben, which to me seems synonymous with earnest posturing and eminent pisstakeability... not to say that you're guilty of this of course! there are also a lot of ways of sneaking something light-hearted into a track to deflate what i'm talking about, it doesn't all have to be rolf harris samples or whatever.

ah now your edit makes my post redundant! haha

The thing about humour in music is that jokes have diminishing returns. First listen = hilarious. Tenth listen = grating.

baz wrote:i reckon humour is one of the most important parts of music and life in general, i can't understand why music that incorporates it is somehow less "real"... terms like that imply a kind of tastefulness ben, which to me seems synonymous with earnest posturing and eminent pisstakeability...

yeah i edited the post to get rid of talking about stuff being real or authentic or whatever, that just sort of rolled off the keyboard as i was typing...

baz wrote:there are also a lot of ways of sneaking something light-hearted into a track to deflate what i'm talking about, it doesn't all have to be rolf harris samples or whatever

definitely like you say though, most of the time it's a lot more subtle than we've been talking about here. these hawerchuk tunes aren't even a total pisstake, it's just sort of what we started talking about. or just what I started talking about maybe

loads of music has diminishing returns whether it has an obvious joke or not, like for example most drop based music quickly loses it's appeal when you can anticipate what's coming after a few listens... i don't think longevity and humour are mutually exclusive.

baz wrote:ah now your edit makes my post redundant! haha

ha, well now you've done it too

UFO over easy wrote:as an aside I've never been arguing for "tastefulness" in dance music either, although it might have appeared like that I suppose just because most of the stuff I really am arguing against revels in its perceived anarchic anti-conformism (although most of the time again it just sounds contrived and slightly childish to me). If I was I'd probably just listen to new broken beat and nothing else.

back to square one I guess, but I've enjoyed talking anyway. much more interesting than just bigging stuff up or down eh

Yeah, I do agree that a lot of it just goes against the grain for the sake of it and just becomes a cliche, but without going into a tedious explanation of how humour works, some of the tunes just hit me as comedy genius.

Also comedy music doesn't have to refer back to other music particularly, some stuff is parody, some stuff may just make use of quirky rhythms or odd instrumentation (Spike Jones for instance or the old Looney Tunes soundtracks) to get the same effect. In a way, I think this more twisted breakcore end probably has more to do with early hip hop sampling when some really stupid loops were being used (sure I can remember one with the I dream of Jeanie theme tune), before "cool" took over (when people stopped smiling in photos and started giving the screwface).

Anyway, has been a good chat, definitely more interesting than the usual drivel

baz wrote:... i don't think longevity and humour are mutually exclusive.

Same here, hearing the same joke over and over is never going to make it funnier, but plenty of comedy does repay repeat viewing. Laughter is all part of life isn't it, always thought it a bit odd that happiness is seen as somehow inferior to deep spirituality when I've always figured that those with the best sense of humour generally have a good understanding of life and it's absurdities, and those that pass themselves off as spiritual are generally those who have to cause they have nothing else of interest to offer (might have hung around with too many world travellahs yah)

I'm trying to think of that 90s tune that sampled the intro jason and the wheeled warriors now..

shonky wrote:when I've always figured that those with the best sense of humour generally have a good understanding of life and it's absurdities

quite common for those guys to be thoroughly miserable as well though I've found

UFO over easy wrote:

shonky wrote:when I've always figured that those with the best sense of humour generally have a good understanding of life and it's absurdities

quite common for those guys to be thoroughly miserable as well though I've found

That's usually why they need a good sense of humour Ben - when a job vacancy states it's a necessity you now know why - it's a thoroughly shit job