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this shit honestly angers me and i've been partaking in local occupy shit to no avail and the cops have been being polite, but believe me if i saw an lrad or riot gear i'd get violent

Soiree wrote:

what would it actually take for wide spread rioting, shooting with real guns? Pretty much the only thing they haven't done yet...

magma wrote:
So how did Civil Rights get through when all the politicians were white? And Women's suffrage when all the politicians were men?

decades and decades and decades of biggotry. intolerance, murder, and violence gradually breeding in leaders disgusted with how african americans were treated.

A fundamental change of how the average american acted.

http://pastebin.com/NwN8ehFW
http://pastebin.com/H1VjweCE

pkay wrote:

magma wrote:
So how did Civil Rights get through when all the politicians were white? And Women's suffrage when all the politicians were men?

decades and decades and decades of biggotry. intolerance, murder, and violence gradually breeding in leaders disgusted with how african americans were treated.

A fundamental change of how the average american acted.

Indeed, but you know how the Suffragettes got their message moving, right?

Coffee mornings.

People would've laughed to high heaven if they thought that a bunch of housewives sitting about drinking tea would change the world, but they did because they kept at it for long enough to change the entire public's opinion (and thus the politicians who need to stay elected)... this is the beginning of a long movement if people show the tiniest bit of willing to muck in and help improve everyone's situation.

^no, magma, it's obviously better to complain than to show any amount of optimism.

magma wrote:

pkay wrote:

magma wrote:
So how did Civil Rights get through when all the politicians were white? And Women's suffrage when all the politicians were men?

decades and decades and decades of biggotry. intolerance, murder, and violence gradually breeding in leaders disgusted with how african americans were treated.

A fundamental change of how the average american acted.

Indeed, but you know how the Suffragettes got their message moving, right?

Coffee mornings.

People would've laughed to high heaven if they thought that a bunch of housewives sitting about drinking tea would change the world, but they did because they kept at it for long enough to change the entire public's opinion (and thus the politicians who need to stay elected)... this is the beginning of a long movement if people show the tiniest bit of willing to muck in and help improve everyone's situation.

this.

also, how did the soviet union fall? as far as i can remember (please correct me if wrong, i dont wiki this stuff) it was a polish guy riding round in a little cart asking who was gonna go on strike..? is that the right story..? im not sure, think i know what im tlaking about. but yea, anything can spark change is basically the message...

clifford_- wrote:

magma wrote:

pkay wrote:

magma wrote:
So how did Civil Rights get through when all the politicians were white? And Women's suffrage when all the politicians were men?

decades and decades and decades of biggotry. intolerance, murder, and violence gradually breeding in leaders disgusted with how african americans were treated.

A fundamental change of how the average american acted.

Indeed, but you know how the Suffragettes got their message moving, right?

Coffee mornings.

People would've laughed to high heaven if they thought that a bunch of housewives sitting about drinking tea would change the world, but they did because they kept at it for long enough to change the entire public's opinion (and thus the politicians who need to stay elected)... this is the beginning of a long movement if people show the tiniest bit of willing to muck in and help improve everyone's situation.

this.

also, how did the soviet union fall? as far as i can remember (please correct me if wrong, i dont wiki this stuff) it was a polish guy riding round in a little cart asking who was gonna go on strike..? is that the right story..? im not sure, think i know what im tlaking about. but yea, anything can spark change is basically the message...

Soviet era Russia/USSR is probably my dodgiest subject, tbh... but, that sounds a lot like the guy that inspired the Polish revolution through founding Solidarity, he was a sparky I think, definitely a tradesman anyway, and ended up becoming their first post-communist President in the early 90s. There was a load on him in Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine book.

That process took him/them 20 years or so (not bad compared to 150 years between abolition of slavery and black voting rights in the US!) ... people are already "giving up" on Occupy after 2 months.

/\ thats the one! my dad told me the story when the occupy thing started up. we need to keep plugging at it, he was quite suprised when i said i hadnt been up there yet....

magma wrote:

pkay wrote:

magma wrote:
So how did Civil Rights get through when all the politicians were white? And Women's suffrage when all the politicians were men?

decades and decades and decades of biggotry. intolerance, murder, and violence gradually breeding in leaders disgusted with how african americans were treated.

A fundamental change of how the average american acted.

Indeed, but you know how the Suffragettes got their message moving, right?

Coffee mornings.

People would've laughed to high heaven if they thought that a bunch of housewives sitting about drinking tea would change the world, but they did because they kept at it for long enough to change the entire public's opinion (and thus the politicians who need to stay elected)... this is the beginning of a long movement if people show the tiniest bit of willing to muck in and help improve everyone's situation.

the point in my comment was that this all my not be as simple as protesting and having politicians suddenly reverse course because the masses are unhappy. Infact that is very unlikely.

We will most likely be in for a very very long struggle with all of this in which it may take the 18-35 year olds of today growing old and being elected into power a few decades from now in order to change things.... or possibly even our children having to suffer through to adult hood and a generation of our mentality existing for it to become the one in power and in a position to perform the literal change.

pkay wrote:We will most likely be in for a very very long struggle with all of this in which it may take the 18-35 year olds of today growing old and being elected into power a few decades from now in order to change things.... or possibly even our children having to suffer through to adult hood and a generation of our mentality existing for it to become the one in power and in a position to perform the literal change.

I absolutely agree that this will be a long struggle. What I don't agree with is the need to point and laugh at those who are saying now is the time for the struggle to start.

Just because it'll take a long time is no excuse to not lend a hand (or even to actively oppose/insult) from the start... only apathy is. Less people will be apathetic as time goes on and we get closer to any kind of change (by the time the majority of citizens have lost their apathy, there's nothing a government can do but listen to them)... but it doesn't make the first ones clowns in the way that they've been painted at times in this thread.

Was talking to a cab driver on Sunday night who brought the subject up and was dead in favour... nice to see the message being spread by our traditional channels as well as the new media!

St Pauls was in a bit of a state of flux today and the 1pm GA didn't go ahead due to only about 15 of us being ready, so I just had a little wander around... what with three sites in London at this point (St Pauls, Finsbury Sq and the UBS Building turned into the Bank of Ideas), I think they're feeling a bit stretched. I hope the charm offensive brings some more supporters.

What mentality are we supposed to grow out of? What are the ends of this struggle? What cultural changes are going to make a difference?

Seeing as it's called occupy wall street I figure the underlying issue is an economic one. How is anything other than a change in government policy going to affect that?

AllNightDayDream wrote:What mentality are we supposed to grow out of? What are the ends of this struggle? What cultural changes are going to make a difference?

Seeing as it's called occupy wall street I figure the underlying issue is an economic one. How is anything other than a change in government policy going to affect that?

a fair distribution of wealth is basically what i deem to be the main objective.
a change in the mindset of PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT seems to be a good start....


whats the last thing anyone has done for the good of the people?

probably the nhs.

everything is done for profit and profit only, that shouldnt be the only thing people have on their minds imo...

just been thinking..
CEOs need to realize that taxes on their enormous capital gains are what ought to be paying for the public transit that gets their employees to work every day. Just one small example of why the anti-tax, "its MY money I earned it" , "stop punishing success" rhetoric is total bullshit.

None of their bright ideas and profitable ventures would ever have gotten off the ground without use of the infrastructure we all paid for. the biggest beneficiaries from society ought to put the most back into it.
when public monies (what got dumped into bailouts) are re-supplied by taxing the rich, the huge ugly wage gap will sort itself out

clifford_- wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:What mentality are we supposed to grow out of? What are the ends of this struggle? What cultural changes are going to make a difference?

Seeing as it's called occupy wall street I figure the underlying issue is an economic one. How is anything other than a change in government policy going to affect that?

a fair distribution of wealth is basically what i deem to be the main objective.
a change in the mindset of PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT seems to be a good start....


whats the last thing anyone has done for the good of the people?

probably the nhs.

everything is done for profit and profit only, that shouldnt be the only thing people have on their minds imo...

I'm totally behind less income disparity, but how is a cultural movement supposed to address that? Beyond that, what real solutions are you proposing? or the movement?

Are you saying the massive populace is too obsessed with profit? Where do you get that?

The government is a powerful financial entity that doesn't exist for profit. Perhaps people should realize and utilize that.

AllNightDayDream wrote:
Are you saying the massive populace is too obsessed with profit? Where do you get that?

its a general observation of the whole business culture, and an observation of friends i have who work in the square mile/canary wharf for the big banks etc.

edit: pretty much any business, and it seems to be getting worse, companys cutting so many corners to make more profit, instead of providing a good service...

clifford_- wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:
Are you saying the massive populace is too obsessed with profit? Where do you get that?

its a general observation of the whole business culture, and an observation of friends i have who work in the square mile/canary wharf for the big banks etc.

edit: pretty much any business, and it seems to be getting worse, companys cutting so many corners to make more profit, instead of providing a good service...

Saying business shouldn't be concerned about profits is like saying a DJ shouldn't be concerned about the crowd response.

The main point for me (and it is a forum for discussion as much as anything yet... consensus on all these things will take time, which is why no "goals" as such have been published yet) is the huge inequalities between those at the top of companies (including their investors) and those at the bottom. Although I agree that a hierarchical pay structure makes sense in terms of career progression within a company, it is clearly not appropriate for the average CEO of an American company to be paid 475 times the wage of his average employee.

It's also obscene that so much faith has been put into the computer systems that run our banking systems that nobody realised boxing up millions of dollars/pounds of destined-to-fail mortgages and trading them like some sort of economic doom themed pass-the-parcel in order to make enormous profits also meant that millions of actual people (many woefully undereducated in personal finance, many poor, weak and desperate) were having their lives ruined by being told they could afford mortgages or credit cards they really couldn't. They had to go bankrupt in order for the system to work, genuinely shattered lives, people made homeless, children put into care... billionaires created, private islands built in amusing shapes... in my book, that's on a par with pushing crack to deprived neighbourhoods yet the likelyhood is nobody will even stand trial for it. They might not have thought it at the time, but their social impact may have been worse than Pablo Escobar... slightly ironic given the cocaine habit of the industry. (Just a shame so many of us saw through the coke and believed them when they told us they were awesome... )

What's needed is a serious conversation and, following that a look at the required policy/regulation involved, on exactly how we should determine the health of our economy and how our companies should be run. IMO, a lot more emphasis should be put on employee wages. Successful companies are everywhere, whether it's recession or not... people need to buy stuff. The only way people can buy stuff is if they have money... want them to buy more stuff? Pay them more money. Cut your CEOs wage in half, because he's not spending it - he's saving it - and distribute it fairly amongst your employees. Pay for some more employees. Make more, sell more.

It's that simple... all the farting around with GDP, Import/Export figures, Interest Rates and even National Debt is just skirting around the real issue of what an economy is actually about. How many people have jobs? How many people don't? How many people have a job but still need support? How much essential shit do we have to pay for? Take those into account and you know how much tax you need... none of it involves praying to the market gods for a "Computer Says Yes" moment on some trader's desk in Canary Wharf. Banks are utterly essential... people need a safe place to put their money, they need loans for big things like houses and to start businesses, we need to be able to make investments in companies in order to help them create products and jobs... but we don't need a, fundamentally imaginary, system on top where people can earn outrageous fortunes gambling on other people's misery... there has to be a conversation about what the limits of banking operations should be.

There's also a conversation to be had about what's genuinely relevant to talk about and base policy on in terms of an economy. Should we really be held to ransom by the IMF because we've made domestic economic decisions? Should we really place low inflation above high employment in terms of importance? Should we really have to be paying benefits to full-time workers because they still can't get by whilst their bosses fly G5s?

Edit: I believe profit is a perfectly decent motive, tbh... I consider myself to work for a profit (my salary), but we need to rebalance its importance in relation to the proper payment of employees. More wage, less dividend... you need some dividend otherwise people don't invest - a lot of new ventures need investment.

TL:DR There's a shitload to talk about. We need to get started.

theres a difference between short term and long term profitability

a company that cuts corners for the short term, only acting on behalf of the board of directors/upper management, will eventually fall behind when their competitors surpass them
a company that takes the short term hit in order to ensure they're doing the right thing for their customers, their employees, the environment, etc. will achieve long term profitability and at the same time produce positive externalities. They will spend more, increasing revenue for other businesses, they'll pay their employees better, increasing consumer spending and subsequently raising revenue for retailers, the stock market grows, GDP grows, employment rises, the environment doesn't suffer

it's shortsightedness thats the big problem. when people have power like they do, they're fucking over everything when they act for the short term. including themselves, its just gonna take awhile to come back around on them. Thats why things like "Occupy" happen

Word.