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danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

obviously however reserved you are if someone spits at you you are going to lash out. and this matey is fuckin BNP so a tnuc anyway regardless and those were fuckin gobby little scallywags who wouldnt care about kicking off with someone. basically they are all pricks and fuck em regardless of race or politics, set of stnuc. Look at it in the same way as prescott havin an egg thrown at him haha

I do love this video

danrev wrote:The BNP guy says "How many is there of us?" not anything about robbers.


Just to say it again. There's alot of ways to boy off the BNP, you dont have to use misquotes (admittedly it does sort of sound like robbers)

he says "how many of youse are robbers?" at the start of the video.

etzel wrote:

danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

Don't think any elaboration is needed mate. We all know undemocratic countries like Burma and North Korea are much nicer placed to live than the democratic hellcapes of Sweden, Japan, France, Spain and Germany

rbnc wrote:

etzel wrote:

danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

Don't think any elaboration is needed mate. We all know undemocratic countries like Burma and North Korea are much nicer placed to live than the democratic hellcapes of Sweden, Japan, France, Spain and Germany

I imagine they mean that democracy as is implemented in real life rather than 'as a political ideology'.

I could be wrong of course!

magma wrote:

seckle wrote:this is 2010, and the BNP has been active in your country for at least 30 years, and is still in 2010 allowed to canvas for votes. how is this possible? how can england as a country try and show the world that its the most progressive and democratic country, when a party like the bnp is rotting its very foundations?

Because we are generally an outward looking country, an island nation who depends on trade and immigration to exist and flourish. We've been multicultural for centuries, most of Europe has. A natural result is a slightly enhanced xenophobia amongst the poor... most European countries have it in a minority. Occasionally, it runs wild so we have to be vigilent, but it's a small price to pay for living in an outward looking society.

America made it's choices to become politically isolationist and largely introspective a long time ago. The USA doesn't need a US Nationalist Party because the US is already incredibly insular... both culturally and politically - it can afford to be, as the world's biggest power... it doesn't need to compromise, so why should it entertain the idea of it?

If your governments had slightly more favourable relationships with countries like Mexico or the South American nations, then you'd probably experience a similar movement which would be kept to an ineffective minority, but you've already got a government that's willing to build a wall between your countries, so there's not much for the Nationalist scum to campaign for, is there?

Incredibly well written response, I'd also like to add, the BNP have had troubles (and continue to do so) to declare themselves as an operating political party because of their racist member entry scheme. Jack Straw continued to move against the BNP until their recruitment policies were changed. So the BNP actually had to temper their (overt) racism to be allowed to become a political party. Which I think is fair dos and emphasizes Britain's commitment to democracy, freedom of speech and equality.

I'd also like raise the causes of the recent surge in popularity of more right wing parties and tendancies in Britain as a major point. As Magma has mentioned, England (UK) are outward looking multicultural countries but in all times of financial difficulties, countries and especially poorer citizens backed up by bad education from typically racially segregated areas (almost the definition of the BNP strongholds) look for scapegoats and organisations to make them feel like they're taking control. Unfortunately racism hasn't been firmly stamped out as a viable option for finding a scapegoat, so the BNP get recruits. It's a slow progression to a truly equal state, we are definitely getting there and I doubt there's many other countries as multi cultural and progressive as the UK. It's hard for me to comment on whether the US is near us or not, especially as the media always highlights the more extreme views and goings on (as I'm sure you have experienced from us!), in reality, unless you're from these hard areas of the UK, chances are you've never met or seen anyone from or in the BNP (I have had the unfortune to live in one of these areas and been canvassed by the BNP - They are stnuc!). Though a black president is certainly a milestone, though we have had a female prime minister, have the US ever had a female presidential candidate?

pete bubonic wrote: though we have had a female prime minister

highly questionable whether that monstrosity could be called female.

rbnc wrote:

etzel wrote:

danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

Don't think any elaboration is needed mate. We all know undemocratic countries like Burma and North Korea are much nicer placed to live than the democratic hellcapes of Sweden, Japan, France, Spain and Germany

pk- wrote:

danrev wrote:The BNP guy says "How many is there of us?" not anything about robbers.


Just to say it again. There's alot of ways to boy off the BNP, you dont have to use misquotes (admittedly it does sort of sound like robbers)

he says "how many of youse are robbers?" at the start of the video.

I think hes saying it too.
Throw around accusations, deal with the consequences

but i guess he did deal with it, with a pretty flimsy right hook i might add but did get a few good kicks on the floor
either way humanity fail

symmetricalsounds wrote:

pete bubonic wrote: though we have had a female prime minister

highly questionable whether that monstrosity could be called female.

rbnc wrote:

etzel wrote:

danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

Don't think any elaboration is needed mate. We all know undemocratic countries like Burma and North Korea are much nicer placed to live than the democratic hellcapes of Sweden, Japan, France, Spain and Germany

that's why your such a twat, cos no-one here is saying that in any way, and you know it

pete bubonic wrote:

magma wrote:

seckle wrote:this is 2010, and the BNP has been active in your country for at least 30 years, and is still in 2010 allowed to canvas for votes. how is this possible? how can england as a country try and show the world that its the most progressive and democratic country, when a party like the bnp is rotting its very foundations?

Because we are generally an outward looking country, an island nation who depends on trade and immigration to exist and flourish. We've been multicultural for centuries, most of Europe has. A natural result is a slightly enhanced xenophobia amongst the poor... most European countries have it in a minority. Occasionally, it runs wild so we have to be vigilent, but it's a small price to pay for living in an outward looking society.

America made it's choices to become politically isolationist and largely introspective a long time ago. The USA doesn't need a US Nationalist Party because the US is already incredibly insular... both culturally and politically - it can afford to be, as the world's biggest power... it doesn't need to compromise, so why should it entertain the idea of it?

If your governments had slightly more favourable relationships with countries like Mexico or the South American nations, then you'd probably experience a similar movement which would be kept to an ineffective minority, but you've already got a government that's willing to build a wall between your countries, so there's not much for the Nationalist scum to campaign for, is there?

Incredibly well written response, I'd also like to add, the BNP have had troubles (and continue to do so) to declare themselves as an operating political party because of their racist member entry scheme. Jack Straw continued to move against the BNP until their recruitment policies were changed. So the BNP actually had to temper their (overt) racism to be allowed to become a political party. Which I think is fair dos and emphasizes Britain's commitment to democracy, freedom of speech and equality.

I'd also like raise the causes of the recent surge in popularity of more right wing parties and tendancies in Britain as a major point. As Magma has mentioned, England (UK) are outward looking multicultural countries but in all times of financial difficulties, countries and especially poorer citizens backed up by bad education from typically racially segregated areas (almost the definition of the BNP strongholds) look for scapegoats and organisations to make them feel like they're taking control. Unfortunately racism hasn't been firmly stamped out as a viable option for finding a scapegoat, so the BNP get recruits. It's a slow progression to a truly equal state, we are definitely getting there and I doubt there's many other countries as multi cultural and progressive as the UK. It's hard for me to comment on whether the US is near us or not, especially as the media always highlights the more extreme views and goings on (as I'm sure you have experienced from us!), in reality, unless you're from these hard areas of the UK, chances are you've never met or seen anyone from or in the BNP (I have had the unfortune to live in one of these areas and been canvassed by the BNP - They are stnuc!). Though a black president is certainly a milestone, though we have had a female prime minister, have the US ever had a female presidential candidate?

space/density is a factor and i can definitely see that point by both of your comments. the chance that a party like the bnp being down the street from me in my city is slim. here in america, they traditionally use small towns for their chapter's. i can't imagine a kkk chapter canvassing the streets of los angeles, for example. it would be world war 3. our major cities are so multicultural now that they'd be run out of town, but in a small rural area they could probably carry on their ways without hassles.

ultimately racism is still an enormous problem, and in some respects due the obama wave, its racism thats quiet, under baited breath and dressed up in a suit. people have become incredibly outspoken about any kind of racism or discrimination here in my city. this is the most amazing part of obama, as its gotten the country talking about it. you can't put a value on that. that has a long term benefit that this country will see in the next decade. i'd say that the coasts of america are just as multicultural and diverse as England. we don't have the powderkeg of religious issues that you have there, but again, i can now see that, as another factor about density of your island. muslims living next door to protestants, living nextdoor to anglicans, hindus, atheists, roman catholics....bound to have problems in a country that has spent hundreds of years under the regiment of royalism, puritanism and ultimately an elite class system.

hackman wrote:

rbnc wrote:

etzel wrote:

danoldboy wrote: Democracy as a political ideology is a joke full stop.

Please elaborate.

Don't think any elaboration is needed mate. We all know undemocratic countries like Burma and North Korea are much nicer placed to live than the democratic hellcapes of Sweden, Japan, France, Spain and Germany

that's why your such a twat, cos no-one here is saying that in any way, and you know it

You are devastatingly articulate.

What was the context of the video and why were they filming? Seems like baiting to me.

That said - eventually all the idiots will find each other and drag each other to hell, leaving the rest of the world for people to enjoy life and get on with stuff.

All fundamentalist & right wing groups may claim some form of superiority as a bloodright or whatever intangible bollocks they decide to conjure up, but none will agree that ignorance can be equally prevailant in all people on this earth. Now that would be a story...

seckle wrote:ultimately racism is still an enormous problem, and in some respects due the obama wave, its racism thats quiet, under baited breath and dressed up in a suit. people have become incredibly outspoken about any kind of racism or discrimination here in my city. this is the most amazing part of obama, as its gotten the country talking about it. you can't put a value on that. that has a long term benefit that this country will see in the next decade. i'd say that the coasts of america are just as multicultural and diverse as England. we don't have the powderkeg of religious issues that you have there, but again, i can now see that, as another factor about density of your island. muslims living next door to protestants, living nextdoor to anglicans, hindus, atheists, roman catholics....bound to have problems in a country that has spent hundreds of years under the regiment of royalism, puritanism and ultimately an elite class system.

That's an interesting point. I actually believe that having people from different backgrounds living next to each other is the only way you can promote understanding and bringing everyone to an equal footing. I believe there was a policy or direction in the UK back in the 60/70s which actively encouraged people to set up communities based on ethnic and religious backgrounds. Or at least a directive that saw it as a given right of a particularly group of people to set up their communities. I'm not saying that things like that are necessarily a bad thing, what with freedom of choice and all, but I do believe that its led to the segregated society we see now. Which is a root cause of a lot of the problems that we see around us.

kay wrote: I believe there was a policy or direction in the UK back in the 60/70s which actively encouraged people to set up communities based on ethnic and religious backgrounds. Or at least a directive that saw it as a given right of a particularly group of people to set up their communities.

it was more to do with the economics of the situation, new immigrants can only afford poorest housing which is usually the inner-city areas.

kay wrote:

seckle wrote:ultimately racism is still an enormous problem, and in some respects due the obama wave, its racism thats quiet, under baited breath and dressed up in a suit. people have become incredibly outspoken about any kind of racism or discrimination here in my city. this is the most amazing part of obama, as its gotten the country talking about it. you can't put a value on that. that has a long term benefit that this country will see in the next decade. i'd say that the coasts of america are just as multicultural and diverse as England. we don't have the powderkeg of religious issues that you have there, but again, i can now see that, as another factor about density of your island. muslims living next door to protestants, living nextdoor to anglicans, hindus, atheists, roman catholics....bound to have problems in a country that has spent hundreds of years under the regiment of royalism, puritanism and ultimately an elite class system.

That's an interesting point. I actually believe that having people from different backgrounds living next to each other is the only way you can promote understanding and bringing everyone to an equal footing. I believe there was a policy or direction in the UK back in the 60/70s which actively encouraged people to set up communities based on ethnic and religious backgrounds. Or at least a directive that saw it as a given right of a particularly group of people to set up their communities. I'm not saying that things like that are necessarily a bad thing, what with freedom of choice and all, but I do believe that its led to the segregated society we see now. Which is a root cause of a lot of the problems that we see around us.

I agree with your point above, I hold the view that should you move to any country for good, then you should immerse yourself in the culture and language. I'm not saying lose your own national identity, but make your (and in effect the people around you) intergration as smooth as possible. So when Bengali street signs started going up in London, it was only ever going to alienate the locals. Silly move by the council there, because it also promotes segregation, as in 'oh, that's a Bengali area, we ain't welcome etc etc..'

It always despresses me a little when you see communities of ex-pats in Spain or wherever and they have their one UK shop they go to, the local pubs are irish or english and they never intergrate themselves with the culture of the country they moved (I've met some people who couldn't even speak the language after living there for 2 years!). It's just depressing. I guess there's a difference in wealth between ex-pats leaving the UK, and many emmigrating to the UK from poorer countries.


Seckle - I think you're bang on point about the religious melting pot the UK has become. I personally think it's great, it gives those inclined towards religion the opportunity to choose and discern between many doctrines. But for me personally (being an outright aetheist) the best thing about it is the culture it brings with it. So much beautiful music and a colourful celebrations of life and love that other religions away from the church of christianity seem to have.

Ironically it's it's one of the things that has always bothered me about the Polish 'invasion' in the UK over the last 3 years. Mans come over and work like fucking mules for decent pay, cool, their choice. Then send all their money back and not re-invest it in the UK. Safe, man got a family to look after, do what you got to do. The bit that bothers me is they don't bring their music or culture with them, there's a couple of shops (one booze and one confectionary!) on my road that are 100% polish, but that's it. No events open to the public as far as I have found, no music influence like the Pakistanis and Indians brought over with them. Maybe they're still finding their feet here (though there's been a Polish church round my area for fucking years) or maybe they just don't give a fuck.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to reference your original and follow up post. Yeah it's gutting that the UK public still see the need for the ignorant and close minded views of a racist group. And having those thugs (and you're definitely right in that term) canvassing the streets is not a nice thing by any means and fucks me off that this country I love could even consider the facism that these people promote. But it would be ignorant on your part to believe that these people are any more prevalent than the right wing facists in your country. Yeah for sure density is a blessing and a curse for this country, but I'm still fairly positive you would be hard pushed to see vast multicultural integration as found in the UK, elsewhere. Coastal USA (the red/blue states? are they still called this?) and parts of central Europe (closer to Africa, Morocco etc) seem to be the only really progressive places in terms of racial equality and even then as soon as the affluence/education suffers, as does the tolerance.

pete bubonic wrote:I agree with your point above, I hold the view that should you move to any country for good, then you should immerse yourself in the culture and language.

I've lost count of the number of times I've wanted to shout this at people I know. And I'm an immigrant! I mean, seriously. Fuck off and go home if you can't stand to mix with local people!

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to reference your original and follow up post. Yeah it's gutting that the UK public still see the need for the ignorant and close minded views of a racist group. And having those thugs (and you're definitely right in that term) canvassing the streets is not a nice thing by any means and fucks me off that this country I love could even consider the facism that these people promote. But it would be ignorant on your part to believe that these people are any more prevalent than the right wing facists in your country. Yeah for sure density is a blessing and a curse for this country, but I'm still fairly positive you would be hard pushed to see vast multicultural integration as found in the UK, elsewhere. Coastal USA (the red/blue states? are they still called this?) and parts of central Europe (closer to Africa, Morocco etc) seem to be the only really progressive places in terms of racial equality and even then as soon as the affluence/education suffers, as does the tolerance.

I would also hazard to say Malaysia. The other countries in the South East Asia region are also generally pretty good at this sort of melting pot mentality but they also have a smaller range of races/cultures/religious groups in them.

pete bubonic wrote:But it would be ignorant on your part to believe that these people are any more prevalent than the right wing facists in your country. Yeah for sure density is a blessing and a curse for this country, but I'm still fairly positive you would be hard pushed to see vast multicultural integration as found in the UK, elsewhere. Coastal USA (the red/blue states? are they still called this?) and parts of central Europe (closer to Africa, Morocco etc) seem to be the only really progressive places in terms of racial equality and even then as soon as the affluence/education suffers, as does the tolerance.

the tension that results from multicultural density is initially a xenophobic reaction. Its sort of a "there goes the neighborhood" thing. this is very clear by how the BNP choose to market themselves.

Large parts of Brooklyn, here in NYC experienced this, where traditionally mono cultural neighborhoods (all hasidic jewish, all italian, or all west indian... for example), suddenly had new cultures descend on them due the population boom in the years before Sept 11th. All of a sudden neighborhoods, that never had these groups living next door as neighbors, had to reconcile their own issues. This was an amazing time in this city's history, as people had to interact and be more tolerant. Gentrification and globalization do quite a good job at bringing out the racists. I think its very healthy, but as i mentioned earlier, its going to be harder for your island, simply due to hundreds of years of puritanism, royal blood line, and the monarchy. Puritanical, knights of templar logic, simply does not work in modern day britain.