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the reason why you might feel that using compression on a sub makes it better is probably just because it's deforming the pure sine and thus creating some distortion/harmonics... if the attack of your compressor is faster than one whole wave (around 80hz=12.5 ms), instead of compressing the whole amplitude of the your sub, you'll be deforming each wave... if you're limiting, you might even square out the top of the sine...

this is not necessarily something you want... harmonics in sub freqs will almost always make for a muddy low end... I'd deffo say, stick to velocities to compensate audible volume changes in sub... obviously when trusting your ear for this kind of maneuver, make sure your monitors respond well to the frequency range you're playing in AND I'd add, crank the volume reasonably high to compensate fletcher/munchanejnarkjnkdssssablah guy

if you get to the end product and you feel that the sub is still weak compared to other mixdowns and it is playing at a decent lever (say -12db ish for a mix at -6db), you could maybe add a bit of exciter on the maser for freqs under 100hz...

rawali wrote:you could maybe add a bit of exciter on the maser for freqs under 100hz...

Fattens up bass like a depressed chick on a carbohydrate rush.

yamaz wrote:....wait dont compress your sub? Do you mean only if wobbling it but is ok to do if using single sustained notes? I understand compressing will lose some dynamics so it can boost volume but never thought it would mess with a sub wobble really...if this is the case does compressing mess up your mid range wobble too?

yes i tend to compress my subs, but if they are under a wobbley midrange i dont put a lfo filter on my sub range is my point
i leave tham as sustained pure notes
that's what i was getting at

This threads got some great stuff in it, i'm just posting so I can find it again later thanks!

rawali wrote:the reason why you might feel that using compression on a sub makes it better is probably just because it's deforming the pure sine and thus creating some distortion/harmonics... if the attack of your compressor is faster than one whole wave (around 80hz=12.5 ms), instead of compressing the whole amplitude of the your sub, you'll be deforming each wave... if you're limiting, you might even square out the top of the sine...

this is not necessarily something you want... harmonics in sub freqs will almost always make for a muddy low end... I'd deffo say, stick to velocities to compensate audible volume changes in sub... obviously when trusting your ear for this kind of maneuver, make sure your monitors respond well to the frequency range you're playing in AND I'd add, crank the volume reasonably high to compensate fletcher/munchanejnarkjnkdssssablah guy

if you get to the end product and you feel that the sub is still weak compared to other mixdowns and it is playing at a decent lever (say -12db ish for a mix at -6db), you could maybe add a bit of exciter on the maser for freqs under 100hz...

Rawali knows his shit. But would add:

If you use a very slow (50ms+) attack time on your sub, and an even slower release, you can add punch because the signal is allowed to pass through at full volume before being gradually squashed by the compressor. (In general I feel this is better achieved using the amplitude envelope of your synth though.) This is more in line with what people would refer to as "compression". It's when you have very short attack and release times relative to the frequency content you're dealing with, that compression starts turning into waveform distortion. That's why you generally compress lower frequency stuff with longer attack/release times (because the individual wave cycle is longer) and high frequencies or transient-based stuff with faster attack/release times (because the individual wave cycle is shorter).

Some great knowlage here.

With regards to high cutting subs (below like 30hz), this is good to do because on good headphones/speakers and big systems which have a frequency response below the threshold of what we can hear, the "too low" frequencies will just sit there making the bass you can hear all muddy and shit. It gets clarity on what you are supposed to be hearing.

Well done for starting this thread mate some really useful stuff on here!

-dubson- wrote:Some great knowlage here.

With regards to high cutting subs (below like 30hz), this is good to do because on good headphones/speakers and big systems which have a frequency response below the threshold of what we can hear, the "too low" frequencies will just sit there making the bass you can hear all muddy and shit. It gets clarity on what you are supposed to be hearing.

I'm guessing you meant highpassing...

acctually, I highly suggest you DONT high pass subs... what you're saying sorta makes sense but the point I'd like to make is that a sine wave (which is deffo what you should be using for a sub) does not have any harmonics... its one frequency and one frequency alone. All you will get from putting a highpass filter on a sub bass is phase shift and less amplitude on your sub...

it is true though that you dont necessarely want anything under 20hz... very low frequencies will act more like dc offset on the master than an acctual oscillation... deffo not something you want to be sending out to a amp/sub... but like I said, a sine wave with it's fundamental note around 80hz does not put out anything above 80hz or under 80hz... it puts out 80 hz (unless your attack is very fast then you get a sorta click on the attack... I beleive this is because when you send a note it's not necessarely starting the waveform from amplitude 0... which create a single square-ish waveform on the attack... but not sure about this though... I will try experimenting with the sync function on reaktor oscillators and see if I get a better result...)

rawali wrote:(unless your attack is very fast then you get a sorta click on the attack... I beleive this is because when you send a note it's not necessarely starting the waveform from amplitude 0... which create a single square-ish waveform on the attack... but not sure about this though... I will try experimenting with the sync function on reaktor oscillators and see if I get a better result...)

(science stuff you prolly don't wanna know about: To cut a long and boring story short, it's because the only signal that's pure 80Hz and nothing else is a sine wave that never ends and goes on til t=infinity. In order for it to come on and off there needs to be frequency content at frequencies other than 80Hz, but only in the immediate vicinity of the start/end of the note (which is why you hear the click even if oscillator doesn't start at amplitude 0). So yeah, you get a little bit of gunk at the start and end of the note, but nothing that you can't fix with a slower attack/release and certainly not enough to be worth filtering out.

Thanks again for this thread! Big up all da sub scientists! I need to bookmark this asap...

static_cast wrote:

rawali wrote:(unless your attack is very fast then you get a sorta click on the attack... I beleive this is because when you send a note it's not necessarely starting the waveform from amplitude 0... which create a single square-ish waveform on the attack... but not sure about this though... I will try experimenting with the sync function on reaktor oscillators and see if I get a better result...)

(science stuff you prolly don't wanna know about: To cut a long and boring story short, it's because the only signal that's pure 80Hz and nothing else is a sine wave that never ends and goes on til t=infinity. In order for it to come on and off there needs to be frequency content at frequencies other than 80Hz, but only in the immediate vicinity of the start/end of the note (which is why you hear the click even if oscillator doesn't start at amplitude 0). So yeah, you get a little bit of gunk at the start and end of the note, but nothing that you can't fix with a slower attack/release and certainly not enough to be worth filtering out.

what if, like I said, I retrig the sine to start at 0 timed with the gate in reaktor? wouldn't that fix the gunk?


edit: eh! I'll just try it

still getting some gunk... either way its no biggy... i wouldnt really use a sine without any attack or release... if anyone likes I made a retarded simple sine wave ensemble in reaktor...

Download Dr. Speaker blower's Lusus. Has the best sub sine and its free. imo its more subby than albino with less work.

Moxxiedubstep wrote:Download Dr. Speaker blower's Lusus. Has the best sub sine and its free. imo its more subby than albino with less work.

But a sub is just a sine wave. How can one sine wave be all that different to another? More subby?



I just use an empty sampler patch in logic, adjust the adsr and adjust the volume to peak at about -12. No worries.

stappard wrote:

Moxxiedubstep wrote:Download Dr. Speaker blower's Lusus. Has the best sub sine and its free. imo its more subby than albino with less work.

But a sub is just a sine wave. How can one sine wave be all that different to another? More subby?



I just use an empty sampler patch in logic, adjust the adsr and adjust the volume to peak at about -12. No worries.

compare the bare settings of albino 3 sine @ 16" range , -1 octave to Lusus -2 octave, low pass. imo maybe just me but the Lusus seems more stable when pairing and eq'ing it with the lfo lead. takes too much work around with albino to get the same effect.

stappard wrote:

Moxxiedubstep wrote:Download Dr. Speaker blower's Lusus. Has the best sub sine and its free. imo its more subby than albino with less work.

But a sub is just a sine wave. How can one sine wave be all that different to another? More subby?



I just use an empty sampler patch in logic, adjust the adsr and adjust the volume to peak at about -12. No worries.

You'd be supprised..

Load up 4-5 synths what you have and play sub notes on them all, with no filters and hear the difference.

Massive's sub is a lot more beefier sounding than albino's and 3oscx but for me, its "to" beefy

Thats true, Massive get crazy subs lol -64 pitch? i wondered why it even went to -64 till one day i figured it out.

Ive gone through atleast 100's of different programs, still my mainliner is Lusus. amazing how some free vsts outdo production based vst's -_-

legend4ry wrote: Massive's sub is a lot more beefier sounding than albino's and 3oscx but for me, its "to" beefy

Thats because Massive fails to put out a good sine.

Brisance wrote:

legend4ry wrote: Massive's sub is a lot more beefier sounding than albino's and 3oscx but for me, its "to" beefy

Thats because Massive fails to put out a good sine.

Youre kidding right? Or maybe its you dont know how use massive... -_-

Brisance wrote:

legend4ry wrote: Massive's sub is a lot more beefier sounding than albino's and 3oscx but for me, its "to" beefy

Thats because Massive fails to put out a good sine.

How so?