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nicenice wrote:I'd come down but would probably end up throwing a rock at the embassy.

So come down and throw a fucking rock then.

call me suspicious
but the flotilla set out from Turkey
previously "understanding" of Israel's position
but with the current islamist government
increasingly asserting its values

the act was provocative however well intentioned by some
and despite Israeli claims to have offered to deliver the boat's humanitarian aid to The Gaza.

beyond that
it's how you believe the Palestinian disempowerment is best addressed

the gnashing of teeth won't help imo.

hackman wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

hackman wrote:protest doesn't work

Your mother doesn't work.

EH HUH
you really think israel's going to listen to you? when they don't even listen to world leaders?

It's not just Israel that been convincing... our own government and the UN need to realise when they're out of step with their citizens. If people want the international community to crack down on Israel, they need to make their voices heard. The worm may be starting to turn in the world... more countries than ever feel comfortable criticising Israel now... far more than I can ever remember in my lifetime anyway.

The reason this will get ignored, if any, is that not enough people show up. Because people are too lazy and selfish to show up.

"Shall we go to the protest?

Nah, skin up la', stick that YouTube about crop circles on... and turn up the volume.... we're gonna enlighten the neighbours"

hackman wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

hackman wrote:protest doesn't work

Your mother doesn't work.

EH HUH
you really think israel's going to listen to you? when they don't even listen to world leaders?

We had this debate last time Israel did something fucking mental when during the assault on Gaza last year (funny how often this sort of shit happens).


The demonstration for me isn't so much to change Israel's policy but as a show of solidarity and sympathy with the Palestinian people. I believe that showing our international brotherhood with them will give them strength and the courage to continue to fight.

My analysis of the Middle East is that a free Palestine for the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and Samaritans cannot exist with an economic system that is based on the ownership of property. As such I do not believe demonstrating in the UK to be what's necessary to change the situation in the region.

magma wrote:

hackman wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

hackman wrote:protest doesn't work

Your mother doesn't work.

EH HUH
you really think israel's going to listen to you? when they don't even listen to world leaders?

It's not just Israel that been convincing... our own government and the UN need to realise when they're out of step with their citizens. If people want the international community to crack down on Israel, they need to make their voices heard. The worm may be starting to turn in the world... more countries than ever feel comfortable criticising Israel now... far more than I can ever remember in my lifetime anyway.

The reason this will get ignored, if any, is that not enough people show up. Because people are too lazy and selfish to show up.

"Shall we go to the protest?

Nah, skin up la', stick that YouTube about crop circles on... and turn up the volume.... we're gonna enlighten the neighbours"

that's rubbish
how many people went to protest about the iraq war? and it was ignored

tr0tsky wrote:The demonstration for me isn't so much to change Israel's policy but as a show of solidarity and sympathy with the Palestinian people. I believe that showing our international brotherhood with them will give them strength and the courage to continue to fight.

that i can dig

magma wrote:

nicenice wrote:I'd come down but would probably end up throwing a rock at the embassy.

So come down and throw a fucking rock then.

It'll just put a negative light on the protest.
Genuine question, when was the last time something changed because of a protest.

hackman wrote:that's rubbish
how many people went to protest about the iraq war? and it was ignored

Yup, that one was. But the protests at least left an atmosphere in the country where the war was freely challenged and ended up being subject to various investigations.

There are plenty of reasons to show your support for a cause. There are also plenty of reasons to sit around doing nothing.... but they're a little harder to be proud of.

nicenice wrote: Genuine question, when was the last time something changed because of a protest.

Between 2008 and 2009 - Ghurka's protesting for equal rights... succeeded in 2010.

Also in recent years, protests against the extra runway at Heathrow. Long thought to be useless... new government has announced it's not going to support the development.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there have been more... tr0tsky might have better recollection than me, tbh.

magma wrote:

hackman wrote:that's rubbish
how many people went to protest about the iraq war? and it was ignored

Yup, that one was. But the protests at least left an atmosphere in the country where the war was freely challenged and ended up being subject to various investigations.

"various investigations"


yeah they were fruitful weren't they

hackman wrote:

magma wrote:

hackman wrote:that's rubbish
how many people went to protest about the iraq war? and it was ignored

Yup, that one was. But the protests at least left an atmosphere in the country where the war was freely challenged and ended up being subject to various investigations.

"various investigations"


yeah they were fruitful weren't they

Well, they're still ongoing (nice to see you take such an interest!), but we'll see. Iraq was a travesty, no doubt... but I think it's obvious little was going to change Blair's mind, sadly. Writing off the whole concept of protest because of one failure is childish, though.

What about Poll Tax? Criminal Justice Bill? Or as I've said above, more recently, the Ghurkas and the Heathrow runway?

Edit: Oh, and let's not forget plenty of other countries protested and WERE listened to over Iraq. The French didn't go. The Germans didn't go. They both had successful protests prior to the war. In fact, only four nations other than the USA sent troops. Us, Australia, Poland and Denmark need a bit more practise in listening to our People.

Laziness is laziness... there's no other word for it.

tr0tsky wrote: The demonstration for me isn't so much to change Israel's policy but as a show of solidarity and sympathy with the Palestinian people.

Fair enough.

I believe that showing our international brotherhood with them will give them strength and the courage to continue to fight.

I don't think they need protests to do that..they seem pretty committed. Better that they find the strength & courage to co-exist peacefully.

Those are all problems for our government though. No protests that involve something larger then our government has been changed, look at G20, the Tamil protest, Iraq. These protests, I would say, are more important then the ones you listed and yet nothing was done about them.

magma wrote:

hackman wrote:

magma wrote:

hackman wrote:that's rubbish
how many people went to protest about the iraq war? and it was ignored

Yup, that one was. But the protests at least left an atmosphere in the country where the war was freely challenged and ended up being subject to various investigations.

"various investigations"


yeah they were fruitful weren't they

Well, they're still ongoing (nice to see you take such an interest!), but we'll see. Iraq was a travesty, no doubt... but I think it's obvious little was going to change Blair's mind, sadly. Writing off the whole concept of protest because of one failure is childish, though.

What about Poll Tax? Criminal Justice Bill? Or as I've said above, more recently, the Ghurkas and the Heathrow runway?

Laziness is laziness... there's no other word for it.

sure little things will achieve success
protesting for serious things will not
go and protest, i really couldn't give a shit

nicenice wrote:Those are all problems for our government though. No protests that involve something larger then our government has been changed, look at G20, the Tamil protest, Iraq. These protests, I would say, are more important then the ones you listed and yet nothing was done about them.

hackman wrote:i really couldn't give a shit

We're depressingly aware.

you misunderstand
i couldn't give a shit whether YOU protest or not

nicenice wrote:Those are all problems for our government though. No protests that involve something larger then our government has been changed, look at G20, the Tamil protest, Iraq. These protests, I would say, are more important then the ones you listed and yet nothing was done about them.

Well, it is only our government, the EU and the UN that we can really protest to... but you can be sure the world community takes notice of civil unrest. Did you see the reaction when Greece shit a brick about austerity recently? Markets went mental, nobody had any idea what to do... Greek riots are coming close to sinking the *German* government!

Although the Iraq protests didn't defeat a war totally, they did leave it in a position where only 5 countries were willing to send troops to help... compared to action in Afghanistan a couple of years before, that's a big difference.

Israel will also be forced to take notice eventually. Opinion is becoming more and more vocal... government ministers are now happy to "condemn" actions like this... we've had talk from government ministers and opposition ministers about possible sanctions... things are moving in the right direction. What a protest does is remind the government that we want things to move a bit quicker.

International diplomacy is a slow, slow sport... takes a long time to alter relations between countries unless you're willing to send an army.

hackman wrote:you misunderstand
i couldn't give a shit whether YOU protest or not

Would you prefer it if nobody did?

What are you suggesting people do instead? Just let it happen with no comment apart from a "tut tut" to their friends?

Or should we keep our comments to internet forums where most people already agree with us?

I realise that protest may not be that much more efficient than shouting in the dark, but, hell, it's a lot more constructive than anything you seem to have proposed.

the only protests that I've been to that were effective at bringing about change
were those at which i was arrested
so
in that light
i suppose the flotilla has been an effective protest
(presuming israel is now compelled to relax the blockade)