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@Bringer I believe that when they say '7 days', they could be meaning it in a different way, as if a 'day' being a long period of time. With this in consideration, God and the theory of the big bang do not conflict at all. Read the story in genesis with this viewpoint and see what you can gather from it.

There are some other parts of the universe taken into consideration, too. These include the sun, the stars, the moon. There was a video I once watched that explained this crazy info about the universe linked to genesis in the Bible, if I find it, I'll let you know.

Did the tora say that the earth is 2000 years old? or that dinosaurs are a trick? I don't recall ever hearing of that or reading it.
The 13.68 billion years before were probably the same span of time that the 7 'days' are referring to.

I don't have much to say on that last statement other than that the ideas presented by those people do not reflect upon the views of jrisreal

Bringer wrote:I see you are from Nauru, Hmm, it seems the overwhelming majority are christian.

lolwhut what does that even mean?

I think its time for...

noam wrote:

Bringer wrote: I'm talking religon.Not mathematics or philosophy or anything else. So your entire post is directed at your own misapprehension.

I meant that all the western/mid eastern religions were written with old human paradigms.

The greeks belived GODS lived on Mars. An 8yr old knows that is not true.

Genesis, the garden of eden? God made the earth in 7 days. Notice how they did'nt mention the rest of the universe, perhaps because the person who wrote it never new about cosmology.

Tora - The earth is 2000 years old? Dinosours are a trick?
What about the 13.68 billion years before.

The Christians hung people who thought that the earth was not the centre of the universe. The same organisation who wrote the book you belive so dutifully.

you think i misunderstood you??

wow... i think we got off on the wrong foot there, you must be new??

Hi im Smart, you're Dumb, nice to meet you

YOU SAID:' the foundations of modern life were laid millenia ago

we still study the philosophy of ancient greeks etc. not because its necessary but because it can still teach us about our world when we dont know better

dont forget, when we're born we know nothing, everything that has been learned before us and passed down is what we then learn, it isn't fair to say that they knew nothing, its a fallacy to think people of old were stupid'


I SAID: that people 1000's of years in the past Europeans or Mid east Asians simply did not have the cosmolgical perspective to create religions that dont seem ridiculous after a few centuries.

I didn't say that Archimedes or Euclid were stupid.

Hence: you misunderstood.

YOU SAID: 'Hi im Smart, you're Dumb, nice to meet you.'

I don't feel the need to respond to that. I guess I'm not as insecure as you.

jrisreal wrote:@Bringer I believe that when they say '7 days', they could be meaning it in a different way, as if a 'day' being a long period of time. With this in consideration, God and the theory of the big bang do not conflict at all. Read the story in genesis with this viewpoint and see what you can gather from it.

There are some other parts of the universe taken into consideration, too. These include the sun, the stars, the moon. There was a video I once watched that explained this crazy info about the universe linked to genesis in the Bible, if I find it, I'll let you know.

Did the tora say that the earth is 2000 years old? or that dinosaurs are a trick? I don't recall ever hearing of that or reading it.
The 13.68 billion years before were probably the same span of time that the 7 'days' are referring to.

I don't have much to say on that last statement other than that the ideas presented by those people do not reflect upon the views of jrisreal

you just went up in my estimations

there's one thing i hate more than a dumb religious zealot and its a dumb atheist

religion offers choices about beliefs and life, people abuse it and its power over others, like many other things in life

i believe there's a lot more to religious texts than a straight up story which bringer describes

also, that statement about ancient people not knowing anything about Cosmology is one of the jokest things i've read, the Ancients invented Cosmology - why do you think we have a fucking calendar

also

Bringer wrote:
YOU SAID: 'Hi im Smart, you're Dumb, nice to meet you.'

I don't feel the need to respond to that. I guess I'm not as insecure as you.

is anyone else... anyone...??

really?

there's so much to work with here, but im gona let you sit on this a while

and also

IDIOT said: also, that statement about ancient people not knowing anything about Cosmology is one of the jokest things i've read, the Ancients invented Cosmology - why do you think we have a fucking calendar

I didn't say they knew nothing (maybe you should learn to digest information properly, i've got better things to do)

It is no coincidence that christianity changes the viewpoint on various things as physisists and cosmologists reveal more and more about nature.

fkin deluded noobs Stop wasting my time.

nature is fucking retarded.

Guys calm down, I don't think that we need to resort to calling eachother idiots or anything...relax, chill out.

and @Youthful Implants

^^ zactly. lets all calm the fuck down.

I didn't have much to add but then when I thought about it, the ancient greeks had a pretty good thing going on. Big affluent empire with simple but civilised way of life. Doesn't sound too bad TBH.

Bringer wrote:IDIOT said: also, that statement about ancient people not knowing anything about Cosmology is one of the jokest things i've read, the Ancients invented Cosmology - why do you think we have a fucking calendar

I didn't say they knew nothing (maybe you should learn to digest information properly, i've got better things to do)

It is no coincidence that christianity changes the viewpoint on various things as physisists and cosmologists reveal more and more about nature.

fkin deluded noobs Stop wasting my time.

ahhahahah 'noobs'

you're like what? 15??

ahahahaha

wrote:IDIOT or (noam) said: also, that statement about ancient people not knowing anything about Cosmology is one of the jokest things i've read, the Ancients invented Cosmology - why do you think we have a fucking calendar.

Who do you mean when you say 'Ancients'?

I'm talking about a specific group of people:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl2.htmThe traditional explanation is that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses himself. There are several variants of this explanation:

•Traditional Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity believe that the text was dictated by God to Moses on Mount
Sinai, letter for letter (or pretty much letter for letter).
•Other religious groups still ascribe authorship to Moses, but use words like "divinely inspired" rather than "dictated
letter for letter."
•Still others say Moses was the sole author, but there's nothing "divine" about it except in the sense that all great
works of literature and poetry are "inspired."

So we can assume god didnt dictate it word for word, given it's many inconsistencies. Well it was written by Hebrews most probably (2500-3200) years ago. These are the people I'm talking about. You see? A very specific group of people. Look up the word specific. I'm surprised you are not aware of this concept (since you are so 'smart' as you put it).

now take a look at this:


This is their cosmological understanding at the time. So my point is that it is very obvious that the bible was written with a great lack of knowlege due to the fact that collective human knowledge increases with time, 2500 years is a very long time in human scales. If they knew that:

The universe contained 100-200 billion galaxies, that this may be 1 of many or infinite universes, that matter is not dead, that consciousness has consequence at the most fundamental levels ie: quantum particles, that quantum particles are in fact waves or probabilites in a linear vector space that react to consciousness, that we are all connected at the fundamental level via quantum entaglement, and many, many other things that can cause a massive paradigm shift of thinking.

(Dont take my word for it, read some books)

My point being that they would'nt said all that stupid stuff, like: talking snake, Noah. (see Rick Gervais Stand-up), Creationism. (ie: Darwinismn is false), there's loads of this stuff, You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave(its ok to have slaves), or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour, the list is long! The underlined really makes my point, It is so obviously related to that time in history, it's like flared trousers and flowerpower x 2000, My other point was that by subscribing to this way of thinking you are anchoring your spirituality to 2500 in the past.

homosexuality - Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

So if you're going to argue with me then make a RELEVANT point about what I am saying.

ps I guess it is only fair to let you try and disparage my own beliefs, after I have had a go at yours.

I believe that 'god' is a fundamental consciousness. And that this consciousness created the universe(s?) in order to accumulate the knowledge of countless billions of conscious beings. How else would such a being know what death felt like or what fear was or finiteness? I dont know much about god really besides that, I'm strong enough simply to hope that I will live on in some way. I dont know if death is final, I dont need to be told that I will go to heaven, I dont presume to know the mind of god. Nobody has to die for my beliefs. I dont need a commandment to tell me what things are wrong.

^^This guy is going to go far. Welcome to the forum.

Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

whahaha I've stopped reading this crap

but pls continue the picks, make me chuckle

cityzen wrote:^^This guy is going to go far. Welcome to the forum.

Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

my favourite bit is how he still believes i believe in the holy bible

re: your sig: i duno, something like direct experience seems to suggest something entirely empirical, and more so - physical/material. Im not sure if this is what you're referring to, but if it is that what i have the problem with. However, i do know that you're a bit of a Buddhist and 'true knowledge' may refer to something different than say, Ayers' justified, true, belief which is a widely known (although now, slightly less credible) description of 'knowledge'

before i go further, you should let us know if im building some sort of straw-man here

noam wrote:

cityzen wrote:^^This guy is going to go far. Welcome to the forum.

Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

my favourite bit is how he still believes i believe in the holy bible

Rule #1 of the fighty, Dawkinsesque atheist - if you defend theism, you MUST be a theist. I think Alien Pimp thinks I'm Christian, too.

It's that sort of failure of critical thinking that leads me to believe they might not the best people to engage with or listen to... they're just attack dogs who have found a new faith to defend.

magma wrote:

noam wrote:

cityzen wrote:^^This guy is going to go far. Welcome to the forum.

Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

my favourite bit is how he still believes i believe in the holy bible

Rule #1 of the fighty, Dawkinsesque atheist - if you defend theism, you MUST be a theist. I think Alien Pimp thinks I'm Christian, too.

It's that sort of failure of critical thinking that leads me to believe they might not the best people to engage with or listen to... they're just attack dogs who have found a new faith to defend.

yeh but he's still stumbling on the ropes from my left-straight of wisdom and right-hook of humour so its fun to play

Im agnostic, that is considerably different from athest. I did actually realise you are not an theist. I meant to all can disparage.

If you can make stumble I would be surprised. As far as I can tell, you have no point. And you're the one who started throwing insults around.

noam wrote:

cityzen wrote: Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

re: your sig: i duno, something like direct experience seems to suggest something entirely empirical, and more so - physical/material.

Pretty much this, however, if we're talking about knowledge of a theory then (imo) direct experience is nothing more than reading about it or hearing it.
It just means that 1000 people could tell you that the grass is green, but without seeing it for yourself you don't know the grass is green.
I have come to respect your opinion, if you can pick holes in my sig I will remove it.

cityzen wrote:

noam wrote:

cityzen wrote: Noam: Why is my sig wrong?

re: your sig: i duno, something like direct experience seems to suggest something entirely empirical, and more so - physical/material.

Pretty much this, however, if we're talking about knowledge of a theory then (imo) direct experience is nothing more than reading about it or hearing it.
It just means that 1000 people could tell you that the grass is green, but without seeing it for yourself you don't know the grass is green.
I have come to respect your opinion, if you can pick holes in my sig I will remove it.

just happened to come across a post on another forum on an unrelated topic but knew it would be relevant in response to this. just searched and it's from wiki.

"Gnosis is used throughout Greek philosophy as a technical term for experience knowledge in contrast to theoretical knowledge or epistemology. The term is also related to the study of knowledge retention or memory (cognition). In relation to ontic or ontological, which is how something actually is rather than how something is captured (abstraction) and stored (memory) in the mind."

Ontology + epistemology ... nice words