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Magma: Goin' In

magma wrote:

snypadub wrote:*By single author I mean Gods word told through these people.

Why would God choose a particular species on a tiny planet in the middle of nowhere to send his message to? If we're part of an evolved system, then we're no more significant than a whale or a flea - why pick on us to saddle us with a crapload of guilt and illogical rules? Is He really so interested in human homosexuality that he'd devise ingenious methods to deliver the message of sin, but not give a damn about all the homosexuality that goes on in the rest of the natural world? Are we supposed to kill murderers or forgive them?

I believe the human brain has a natural urge to believe. There's a huge kick to be got from feeling like you're part of something higher or that someone else can take responsibility for ones existence. I imagine it comes from the need to feel positive about society, the difference that made Homo Sapiens group into as larger tribes as they could, whereas other hominids stuck to family groups like most animals. We have an in built urge to believe in a force stronger than an individual can muster and our body rewards us for having them with the most wondrous feelings in the brain - whether they're gained from listening to Mass In D Minor whilst reading Exodus or Anti War Dub whilst on pills with a crowd of strangers, our brain craves those sorts of experiences. Unspoken bonding with the rest of creation, brotherhood of Man; all for one, one for all... it's how humans operate. It's what made us best.

To the mind of a man 2000 years ago who'd never had the chance to read Origin of Species or live through the century of evidence gathering since it, it can be easy to mistake those euphoric mental experiences for religious ones. People that need to find a quick way to band everyone together (i.e. the displaced peoples that needed to band together to form one people - eventually Jews) can either knowingly or ignorantly impose their own uninformed opinion on everyone else... tell it strongly (promise hell, fire and brimstone for people that don't tow the line and eternal paradise for those that do) and they'll band together and defeat the common enemy - the victory and survival of the tribe is taken as a sign from God that they're doing the right thing and the monotheistic religion becomes accepted. Everyone else is a barbarian, or at the very least a wretched soul worthy of pity. Members of the religion get to feel an absolute sense of inclusion in a tribe with no borders and more members than you could picture at one time... the ultimate human bonding experience.

In reality, I can't see any terribly good reason to even bring up the existence of a creator other than some people have suggested it in the past. Yes, thinking about one can give us astounding mental experiences and tweak our brains in ways that give us immense insight into our own personality, faults and strengths - but we've seen in the last century that this can also be as easily achieved through taking drugs (especially ecstasy and LSD), going through psychotherapy, having a near death experience or meditation with no regard for a higher power. The common link is human brains, not God.

Read on the psychology of religion, it seems it's probably learnt (or self-conceptualised) rather than being innate - not everyone believes in a (or more than one) sentient universe-manipulator. Check out Chinese Daoism for a more pragmatic belief system, or just the many people that have never believed in God as well as the people that have reject such a belief that might have been initially been followed due to socialisation or conditioning.

Such beliefs are pretty ubiquitous though it doesn't make it an instinct or urge... They still confer some advantages though (generally people are healthier in some way, like a placebo treatment based on reassurance) but they can also cause a fuck load of problems if their intractable!

test recordings wrote:Read on the psychology of religion, it seems it's probably learnt (or self-conceptualised) rather than being innate - not everyone believes in a (or more than one) sentient universe-manipulator. Check out Chinese Daoism for a more pragmatic belief system, or just the many people that have never believed in God as well as the people that have reject such a belief that might have been initially been followed due to socialisation or conditioning.

Such beliefs are pretty ubiquitous though it doesn't make it an instinct or urge... They still confer some advantages though (generally people are healthier in some way, like a placebo treatment based on reassurance) but they can also cause a fuck load of problems if their intractable!

I didn't say religion was natural, I meant more a tendency towards 'spiritual' (for want of a much better word, I'm sure) experiences are natural. People can get similar effects from all sorts of secular experiences and, I think, be healthier for them... if they take them for what they are. Many atheists get as rabid about their beliefs as the religious do about theirs, some sports fans are willing to kill and maim for a badge, Apple fans will travel from China to London to buy an iPhone 4GS on release day (and hardcore Apple fans show similar brain reactions when looking at an iPhone as a devout Christian looking at a painting of the Passion)... total submission to any kind of belief system you didn't make up yourself surely can't help anyone perfectly... there will always be some guilt because your 'natural' code doesn't quite sit with the faith's. Understanding yourself as an animal and the world around you is the only thing that will bring you true, reliable happiness... people have got pretty close to a general target with all kinds of dogmas, but each brain is different... we all view the world through a different filter, we all have a natural bent due to our nature and experience towards certain ways of thinking.

I tend to approach existence as being a highly evolved ape living in a society that is the result of hundreds of generations of imperfect compromises to assuage the needs and demands of millions of individuals, in the main pretty similar apes to me (occasionally wildly different) who all view the world in a unique way. In less educated times, the best way to make everyone behave and not just rob and murder for their own family or tribe all the time was to give them a scary religion; religions tend to get more intense in times of strife (Puritanism during our civil war was remarkably similar to the Taliban regimes in oppressed and perennially invaded Afghanistan; it's a great way to make people sacrifice their life for more than just their immediate family, suddenly the whole country is family)... "Follow these rules, do your duty to your society and you'll go to heaven, be reincarnated into something better or simply have good things happen to you"... it's trite bullshit to band tribes together in order to fulfill the natural urge of belonging to as large a group as possible. Whatever situation a human is put into, it will try and group itself with those similar to it and from that unspoken bonding, it will go through moments of sublime happiness and crushing despair, all heightened by the feeling that hundreds, thousands or even millions are experiencing it at once.

But... that's just the way I see it. Spiritual satisfaction has to evolve with our awareness of spiritual experiences as in all aspects of human life... one man and a lute singing a medieval song about having once seen a girl's ankle would've been enough to raise some tents in pantaloons in 1256, but it can't possibly compete with a 21st century girl group for base titillation... over the centuries we've understood how rhythm, communication, electronics and bulimia can be harnessed to produce erections. We can do the same with raptures.

Strangely, I've got a date with a girl who researches this stuff for a living this week... if she puts me in my place, I'll come back and eat a big plate of humble pie in front of snypadub.

This won't advance the debate much, but I guess you're all here because from time to time you like to ponder religion and the universe and such things.

http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal

This is simply one of the best things I've read on this subject or any. If you have 20 minutes spare I suggest you do so yourself, you'll be better for it

@Magma: so you mean that people will drift towards what they think will make them feel better? From what I've read this is generally the case (it also forms one half of the basis of behaviourist principles), a lot of religions/philosophies also tend to deal with how to not cave in to your desires as they can be illusory/misguided etc... Like processed sugar and trans-fat makes things taste 'nice', I suppose

test recordings wrote:@Magma: so you mean that people will drift towards what they think will make them feel better? From what I've read this is generally the case (it also forms one half of the basis of behaviourist principles), a lot of religions/philosophies also tend to deal with how to not cave in to your desires as they can be illusory/misguided etc... Like processed sugar and trans-fat makes things taste 'nice', I suppose

Given total free will I think they would - of course, what innately feels better is determined quite a bit by what you're told, what you read and what you see, especially when you're a kid... you don't get much choice over that. Your brain changes composition depending on what kind of thought you favour - so it seems likely that different 'types' of thinker may require a different filter to view society through in order for it to be psychologically pleasing. My old housemate was basically an atheist in the way that she lived her life, but if you got her at a tired/drunk moment she was full of guilt for not living up to her Mum's Catholic ideals that had been subconsciously drummed into her as a child. None of us can really stop parents passing down beliefs like that, we'll all do it entirely accidentally. At this point in time, the most effective way to keep a lot people happiest is to let them have their religion in peace... in the fullness of time, the atheist in me hopes that education will improve so that no kids bother with the idea of a God anymore, but I can't help admit that's exactly the sort of thing my Dad would've said when I was young (though in slightly more vehement terms)... it suits my conditioning perfectly.

Slightly relatedly (and after the carcrash evolution thread), I don't think it should be ignored that a lot of people act rather "religiously" about atheism and Darwinism and I'm not sure it's a totally separate phenomenon. People love belonging to the "clever" tribe. I don't really understand the missionary zeal that people show when they're talking about it... I get it with politics, politics matter... convincing people of new social ideas changes the world (whether that's the Sermon on the Mount or I Have A Dream)... what positive difference does making an otherwise decent Christian feel bad about himself make to anyone except massage their ego? It seems to be classic tribal behaviour... most of us atheists owe little more than most Christians for their opinions (the word of another man, books, pictures), yet we're often happy to proclaim things as FACT when we couldn't even begin to get our head around how anyone proved it was a fact. I can remember the proof for Pythagoras Theorum, but I'd be fucked if someone challenged me on why Relativity is true... it just... IS. For all I really know, nuclear bombs could be fucking sorcery (no parson).

Essentially, we're all different. Most of us are lovely. Let's all be happy about it. And let's argue about things that matter, like bank bailouts and deep seated urban decay.

I'm such a fucking hippy lately.

Yeah the only thing provable is mathematics, even science relies on theories as the 'currently most plausible answer which should be revised with the earliest possible dis-confirming evidence being found'...