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wilson wrote: Agnosticism is the only justifiable position to hold.

Nope! look at the facts before you and make up your mind. Stop fence sitting!!!

Also guys lets not argue over the thought of a man or being that controls our every move, created the vast expanse and continues to create the vast expanse of the universe, made the earth and all the animals within (which he must still be creating as we see all these new species develop before our eyes). He must control all the germs and microscopic bacteria. Every atom has been placed by this being and no atom will move without his planning. Because we all know deep down that it is bullshit. The thought of one being have outright control of the earth, heavens and all it's contents is ridiculous. Now lets get past this religious stage in human evolution and move on to bigger things like a space elevator.

lol i'm glad someone pointed out that the bible is at least *partially* historically based

jeeeeeez

gnome wrote:space elevator.

i'm with you!

@Unwind - no, it definitely makes sense, and i agree. it's absurd to think that a supposedly benevolent god would condemn some people to eternal pain and suffering and others the opposite, dividing them all along some arbitrary line in the spectrum you were talking about.

After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it? Getting to heaven, or going to hell if you don't fit the bill.

another one of my big qualms with religion. if all you care about on earth is making sure you're going to heaven, that's not exactly good for the rest of the world...

gnome wrote: Now lets get past this religious stage in human evolution and move on to bigger things like a space elevator.

exactly

How is Agnostiscm not an attempt to make sense of reality?

Anyway, in my personal atheist view, to try make sense of reality in any way is naive. The only way to cope with reality is to acknowledge that it is completely senseless and meaningless. There is no such thing as absolute truth; truth is constructed. Science acknowledges this, religion does not.

Also, I'm not sure wether this is a famous quote or not but I heard someone explaining their atheist view to a Christian the other day like this: "There are thousands of religions in our world. The only difference between you and I is that I choose to believe one less." Sums it up really.

I should add that I will happily tolerate other people's points of view but not necessarily respect them.

The fundamental discord is; if God is good and all-powerful and/or all-knowing, why do bad things happen? How do things like infanticide and animal cruelty figure into the larger good?

Ironically it's the disconnect, the irrationality, the friction in this very question that drives many to believe.

I'm curious to know what the deist take on this is. (Not baiting either. Genuinely curious.)

Naan Bread wrote: Also, I'm not sure wether this is a famous quote or not but I heard someone explaining their atheist view to a Christian the other day like this: "There are thousands of religions in our world. The only difference between you and I is that I choose to believe one less." Sums it up really.

i really like that

Naan Bread wrote:How is Agnostiscm not an attempt to make sense of reality?

Anyway, in my personal atheist view, to try make sense of reality in any way is naive. The only way to cope with reality is to acknowledge that it is completely senseless and meaningless. There is no such thing as absolute truth; truth is constructed. Science acknowledges this, religion does not.

Also, I'm not sure wether this is a famous quote or not but I heard someone explaining their atheist view to a Christian the other day like this: "There are thousands of religions in our world. The only difference between you and I is that I choose to believe one less." Sums it up really.

I should add that I will happily tolerate other people's points of view but not necessarily respect them.

i get what you're saying, but it's incorrect to assume that anyone who calls themselves an atheist/agnostic is instantly also someone who embraces science and the explanations it brings forth such as the big bang, evolution, etc.

yes, the big bang, evolution, etc. are attempts to make sense of reality, but no, atheism isn't necessarily.

and the exact quote would be:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts

one of my favorites

also link cause it's too big to embed

+1 that is a terrific quote

The idea that the creation myths for various civilisations are different, but similar has only just occurred to you?

This isn't exactly new research, Nils.

Naan Bread wrote:Anyway, in my personal atheist view, to try make sense of reality in any way is naive. The only way to cope with reality is to acknowledge that it is completely senseless and meaningless. There is no such thing as absolute truth; truth is constructed. Science acknowledges this, religion does not.

That seems very similar to my interpretation of agnosticism. Essentially I believe that we do not and probably will never know enough about reality to form a worthwhile opinion on its origin, so why have one at all other than to satisfy our need to understand things?

i contend that we can discover our origin

our minds dont work in the right way to understand our existence yet

we cant even work out how to view the world from outside of our own perceptions without the use of mind altering drugs, even then the perception is still wholly subjective

conceptually we're still limited to one dimension

objectivity may aswell not even exist to us so discovering our origins is about as likely as something really unlikely happening a really unlikely amount of times over and over again forever

Haha SNH at work.

magma wrote:The idea that the creation myths for various civilisations are different, but similar has only just occurred to you?

This isn't exactly new research, Nils.

No hasn't just occurred to me now. I did Greek and Latin in high school so I had my fair share of myths and discussions about them and religion.

I just saw the picture, was interested in what you guys thought and had to say about it, and posted it here.
I have lots of thoughts about this and reading all the stuff you people are posting gives me new food for thought.

Please don't shoot me

Phigure wrote:indoctrination

they're raised with it starting from such a young age that the normal reasoning process is pretty much bypassed. they don't ever really get to the point of questioning whether it makes sense or not

Yes exactly.
I'm not really a huge Dawkins fan as I sort of see him as an atheist version of an annoying evangelist, but I do respect his opinions and works. He puts it perfectly here:

Why has the subject of reality arose in this thread? Reality has nothing to do with the existence of God or the creation of our existence.

The bible was written 400 years after jesus died, it was cobbled together like any other historical text. The great flood is a re telling of an old babylonian myth, does that make it fact because cultures told the same tale thousands of years apart? Obviously there is historical fact in parts of the bible but other parts are just total bullshit. For example the bible claims that the jews destroyed the walls of jericho with the ark of the covenant but archaeological evidence states that the walls had long been demolished before the jews even existed. I think its pretty clear to see that islam and christianity started out as the same religion, most likely different interpretations of the same text. Niether the bible or the qur'an have remained the same since their inception, they have both been twisted and tweaked to serve religious leaders at the time. If anything religion was used as a tool to control people.

Maybe god does exist, who are we to know the truth of the matter but claiming the bible as the ultimate truth is just totally crazy because its been re hashed so many times that the original message or truth is long gone.

NilsFG wrote:Haha SNH at work.

magma wrote:The idea that the creation myths for various civilisations are different, but similar has only just occurred to you?

This isn't exactly new research, Nils.

No hasn't just occurred to me now. I did Greek and Latin in high school so I had my fair share of myths and discussions about them and religion.

I just saw the picture, was interested in what you guys thought and had to say about it, and posted it here.
I have lots of thoughts about this and reading all the stuff you people are posting gives me new food for thought.

Please don't shoot me

Only kidding dude, just made me giggle. I figured this was just how most non-religious people thought... the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" and all that.

All people like stories, but some love to take them a little too seriously... some people even take Star Trek seriously enough to learn an invented "alien" language. Conclusion: many people are silly, but all are infinitely entertaining... you've just got to get the context right.

Also no doubt after Christianity fades away, in future generations it will be looked upon in the same snide way that people brush off Greek and Roman mythology. By then some new popular belief would have taken over. It always happens that way when new ideas rise, people convert and denounce past beliefs. I'm sure there will still people who believe in Christianity though, just like there is still people who pray to pre-Christian Odin.

gnome wrote:Why has the subject of reality arose in this thread? Reality has nothing to do with the existence of God or the creation of our existence.

existence of God - source of our creation - contention that we can or can't discover our own origins - the nature of our reality being that it is impossible to truly know our origins

i haven't even read the thread but that was easy