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I don't know why I'm posting all this nonsense tbh, I'm just really bored. Sorry for spoiling the thread.

AxeD wrote:

noam wrote:

AxeD wrote: If people want to protect human rights, they should visit some women in Iran or kids in Thailand.

wot.

whoever brought up satisfying ones ego for the sake of rehabilitation... what in the fuck does ego have to do with bettering the planet??

killing a guy wont bring his victims back to life, rehabilitating him saves a life.

think about that

I don't see where I brought up anything about ego. I just think that it's crap to talk about an awful murderer's rights,
when there's innocent people in pain because of the lack of these rights every day.

I don't need revenge. But I don't see why he deserves
a second chance in society, when he's completely sane and very enthusiastic about murdering innocent kids.
I've been close to people who help criminals rehabilitate all my life and I don't think I'll be having a nice cup of
tea with Breivik in 20 years.
Just my opinion though, not the first time I don't agree with you noam

if you didn't mention anything about ego then that comment wasn't aimed at you then was it

the moment you call anyone 'innocent' you have to ask what they're 'innocent' of then you have to ask what he's 'guilty' of then you're stuck in a predicament whereby all of a sudden the only reason those people are 'innocent' is because they didn't kill 77 people

it sounds bizarre but leave out the 'innocent' part and you have a better argument

i never said you have to like him, or the course of action in rehabilitating him, but you haven't given me one reason why anything i said is actually incorrect, all you've said is you dont see why he deserves a second chance, which is just stating what he actually did...

you haven't really got any further than that tbh

noam wrote:

espire wrote:I agree with Noam but it feels kinda weird to set Breivik free. Imagine what would happen if they let him go... I can't even imagine how furious the Norwegians would be.
I'm kinda curious if they are gonna keep adding 5years or if they'll eventually dare to try and rehabilitate him.

you dont just set him free, he'll be in prison for 21 years

thats a long time

thats time enough for the most sadistic criminals to rehabilitate THEMSELVES, they do this by educating themselves, and their experiences in there are all part of the education

swear down some of you thought American History X was 'just a good story'

its an unpopular view, but that guy could have killed one person and you lot wouldn't give a shit, 77... NOW he's scum?! the amount of people you kill doesn't change the crime. thats why he got 21 years.

im gona keep repeating it though, if you can succeed in making this guy realise in just the smallest way that what he did was inhumane and at bottom wrong, you're winning the battle more than if you killed him when he still thought he was right.

^

some people seem to think you can just keep adding more time and that makes a functional difference to anything, like if you gave him 77 consecutive life sentences that would be a meaningful sentence? even a hundred year sentence is fundamentally ridiculous. it's just retributive grandstanding, acting like all a good response to crime is is a simple calculation.

breivik could have been as calculated, as determined, as remorseless as he is here and only killed one or two people, or not killed anyone. what is the benefit of a spectacular sentence? whom does it comfort? as far as i can tell it comforts only people who need to believe that any crime, no matter how severe, can be relinquished and cancelled out by an equally spectacular sentence. this is a backwards, primal belief imo. the reality is that no RATIONAL sentence and no rational legal system can satisfy this primal demand for "equality" and "symmetry" in punishment. he was rightly convicted, and got 21 years, a hell of a long time, the given punishment for such an act. he can be kept in prison if he is still considered a danger, which he probably will be. what more needs to be done? what more can be done?

^
SPOT. ON.

noam wrote:

AxeD wrote:

noam wrote:

AxeD wrote: If people want to protect human rights, they should visit some women in Iran or kids in Thailand.

wot.

whoever brought up satisfying ones ego for the sake of rehabilitation... what in the fuck does ego have to do with bettering the planet??

killing a guy wont bring his victims back to life, rehabilitating him saves a life.

think about that

I don't see where I brought up anything about ego. I just think that it's crap to talk about an awful murderer's rights,
when there's innocent people in pain because of the lack of these rights every day.

I don't need revenge. But I don't see why he deserves
a second chance in society, when he's completely sane and very enthusiastic about murdering innocent kids.
I've been close to people who help criminals rehabilitate all my life and I don't think I'll be having a nice cup of
tea with Breivik in 20 years.
Just my opinion though, not the first time I don't agree with you noam

if you didn't mention anything about ego then that comment wasn't aimed at you then was it

the moment you call anyone 'innocent' you have to ask what they're 'innocent' of then you have to ask what he's 'guilty' of then you're stuck in a predicament whereby all of a sudden the only reason those people are 'innocent' is because they didn't kill 77 people

it sounds bizarre but leave out the 'innocent' part and you have a better argument

i never said you have to like him, or the course of action in rehabilitating him, but you haven't given me one reason why anything i said is actually incorrect, all you've said is you dont see why he deserves a second chance, which is just stating what he actually did...

you haven't really got any further than that tbh

Now that you say it. I don't understand your comment when you quoted my initial response.
So only the word ''wot'' was aimed at me? Maybe you could elaborate on that then


Anyway, I agree with dubfordessert in a way. But I think setting him apart from normal society after his 21 year sentence would
be the best option. Dunno the correct word in English, but it's basically an open prison with treatment.
Still feel like you're both grossly underestimating how hard it is to work with someone that's literally inhumane.
I'm really convinced your average team of psychiatrists won't be able to reach him in any way.

It's also quite a bit easier to talk about how he was rightly accused etc. When you're not as close to the actual
incidents.

noam wrote:

espire wrote:I agree with Noam but it feels kinda weird to set Breivik free. Imagine what would happen if they let him go... I can't even imagine how furious the Norwegians would be.
I'm kinda curious if they are gonna keep adding 5years or if they'll eventually dare to try and rehabilitate him.

you dont just set him free, he'll be in prison for 21 years

thats a long time

that's what I meant :p

so geographically cos you're closer to Norway you are better at liberty to judge...?

and your solution is now that he CAN be rehabilitated but its probably too hard so we should just not bother??

i dont really know what you're goin on about tbh

all my replies to everything said is there, i echo exactly what Dubforddessert said so thats my standpoint if you prefer seeing it written next to her name than mine i duno

but yeh, someone else said sumat bout 'ego' in relation to 'trying to save him'... they basically misunderstood the entire essence of what i was talking about

and the 'wot' was because justifying ignoring any rights this guy might have with the fact there are worse abuses of human rights in the world is stupid and bizarre

He will be getting life in prison, when the 21 years is up they will give him another 5 years and keep doing it until he is dead. Norway will not make any exceptions to their laws for scum like Breivik.

noam wrote:so geographically cos you're closer to Norway you are better at liberty to judge...?

and your solution is now that he CAN be rehabilitated but its probably too hard so we should just not bother??

i dont really know what you're goin on about tbh

all my replies to everything said is there, i echo exactly what Dubforddessert said so thats my standpoint if you prefer seeing it written next to her name than mine i duno

but yeh, someone else said sumat bout 'ego' in relation to 'trying to save him'... they basically misunderstood the entire essence of what i was talking about

and the 'wot' was because justifying ignoring any rights this guy might have with the fact there are worse abuses of human rights in the world is stupid and bizarre

I agreed with you. That statement about recidivism in Scandinavia was an arguement in favor of rehabilitating him after 21years. And with "setting him free' I meant "after his 21years are over'. So I kinda agree with you and Dubfordessert all the way.

and with my statement saying it would be weird to set him free; I don't think it has happened before that someone who did similar things (including Breivik's preparation, political believes and the scale of the murders) has been rehabilitated. Again, I'm all for rehabilitating him despite this being a special case.

i was talking to AxeD not you bro

hahah

noam wrote:they should attempt to ingratiate him in the general population and rehabilitate him.

thats what civilised societies do with criminals

any other tactic is barbarous

Really interesting story is the one about the two Norwegian kids (around 11/12 I think?) that killed a girl (maybe 8 years old?) and what happened to them. Can't remember names but probably easy enough to find. Compare that to Robert Thompson and Jon Venables and the constantly fucked up situation that seems to be, and you'll see how fucked up the general public would like the prison system to be, regardless of the evidence elsewhere.

Would rather see a bad situation getting worse than someone that has seen the error of their ways and goes onto be a productive member of society. Might not work in every case, but there are safeguards, and it's worth a try.

noam wrote:you dont see the hypocrisy in rationalising murdering rational people for rationally believing its okay to kill...?? like thats the dumbest argument ever

secondly, i meant gen pop in prison, not public... yet

but yes, i believe everyone should be given the chance to rehabilitate, its the very definition of civilised, progressive, enlightened society

you do your best otherwise they dont stop winning

if you kill him, he becomes a martyr for those who share any sort of the same belief system as him

if you rehabilitate him you kill everything he once stood for, you kill the idea behind the action as opposed to the man who has already done it...

if you fail at least you tried...

i fucking hate it when people talk this nonsense
as if a society deciding collectively that they need to get rid of one murderous sociopath is the same as that murderer deciding he needed to rid the world of his victims
how could you possibly equate the two
as if it matters that he's "unarmed" at the time of execution
what the fuck is such a big deal about the death penalty
it's a PENALTY of death.
it's not about "oh this is such hypocrisy, killing someone because they got killed
just a bullshit way to try and declare your own nobility

it's not worth our resources and the risk to rehabilitate and try to "kill what he stood for" you've got to be fucking kidding me
if you're that naive and self righteous you think the just thing to do is to kill the cold-blooded murderer's mean nasty thoughts and turn him into a good person
so he'll see the err of his ways and everyone can rejoice now that the murderous evil thoughts are dead

you have got to be fucking kidding me

i seriously can't rage enough at this post

just fucking kill the piece of shit
letting murderers go free is not the definition of civilized enlightened society
arts, sciences and justice are. safety is
you'll be safe too as long as you don't decide to commit mass murder
our enlightened, merciful practices are not for the criminally insane mass murdering members

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of human civilization would rather remove people like this, than invest in their rehabilitation so that we can be "enlightened and civilized"
call me barbaric, i don't give a fuck.

noam wrote:so geographically cos you're closer to Norway you are better at liberty to judge...?

and your solution is now that he CAN be rehabilitated but its probably too hard so we should just not bother??

i dont really know what you're goin on about tbh

all my replies to everything said is there, i echo exactly what Dubforddessert said so thats my standpoint if you prefer seeing it written next to her name than mine i duno

but yeh, someone else said sumat bout 'ego' in relation to 'trying to save him'... they basically misunderstood the entire essence of what i was talking about

and the 'wot' was because justifying ignoring any rights this guy might have with the fact there are worse abuses of human rights in the world is stupid and bizarre

Just heard the chance he's ever going to get out is crazy small anyway. It's basically a life sentence.
I don't feel like I'm at better liberty to judge, but I'm frequently in Oslo and my parents were in the street where
the initial bomb exploded at the time. So it's hard for me to keep emotion out of this.
I agree my statement about human rights went too far though.

But to emphasize again, he's most likely looking at life in prison. Not that relevant to the discussion as no one really said
that would be ridiculous.. but it's just the latest news

Today wrote:

noam wrote:you dont see the hypocrisy in rationalising murdering rational people for rationally believing its okay to kill...?? like thats the dumbest argument ever

secondly, i meant gen pop in prison, not public... yet

but yes, i believe everyone should be given the chance to rehabilitate, its the very definition of civilised, progressive, enlightened society

you do your best otherwise they dont stop winning

if you kill him, he becomes a martyr for those who share any sort of the same belief system as him

if you rehabilitate him you kill everything he once stood for, you kill the idea behind the action as opposed to the man who has already done it...

if you fail at least you tried...

i fucking hate it when people talk this nonsense
as if a society deciding collectively that they need to get rid of one murderous sociopath is the same as that murderer deciding he needed to rid the world of his victims
how could you possibly equate the two
as if it matters that he's "unarmed" at the time of execution
what the fuck is such a big deal about the death penalty
it's a PENALTY of death.
it's not about "oh this is such hypocrisy, killing someone because they got killed
just a bullshit way to try and declare your own nobility

it's not worth our resources and the risk to rehabilitate and try to "kill what he stood for" you've got to be fucking kidding me
if you're that naive and self righteous you think the just thing to do is to kill the cold-blooded murderer's mean nasty thoughts and turn him into a good person
so he'll see the err of his ways and everyone can rejoice now that the murderous evil thoughts are dead

you have got to be fucking kidding me

i seriously can't rage enough at this post

just fucking kill the piece of shit
letting murderers go free is not the definition of civilized enlightened society
arts, sciences and justice are. safety is
you'll be safe too as long as you don't decide to commit mass murder
our enlightened, merciful practices are not for the criminally insane mass murdering members

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of human civilization would rather remove people like this, than invest in their rehabilitation so that we can be "enlightened and civilized"
call me barbaric, i don't give a fuck.

either way, resources will be wasted. you think the death penalty runs cheap?

I'd say it's about 10 bucks a pop

Completely against the death penalty myself. But kudoz for the enthusiasm Today!

firstly @ AxeD - cool man, glad we on the same page there, not good to hear bout your parents, sure it was very traumatic, hope they're well!

now then...

noam wrote:you dont see the hypocrisy in rationalising murdering rational people for rationally believing its okay to kill...?? like thats the dumbest argument ever

secondly, i meant gen pop in prison, not public... yet

but yes, i believe everyone should be given the chance to rehabilitate, its the very definition of civilised, progressive, enlightened society

you do your best otherwise they dont stop winning

if you kill him, he becomes a martyr for those who share any sort of the same belief system as him

if you rehabilitate him you kill everything he once stood for, you kill the idea behind the action as opposed to the man who has already done it...

if you fail at least you tried...

i fucking hate it when people talk this nonsense

a) its not nonsense, you see, there is a reason why there are much much better penal systems in the world than those which kill people for crimes, any time one person is convicted wrongly and executed means that that system has failed, have a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

as if a society deciding collectively that they need to get rid of one murderous sociopath is the same as that murderer deciding he needed to rid the world of his victims
how could you possibly equate the two

i dont even know what you're talking about here, its not equating the two, the latter is the result of the formers actions... there's no equating the two, im starting at this point to doubt you understand the very concept of justice and conviction

as if it matters that he's "unarmed" at the time of execution

i didn't personally say anything about it mattering at all if he's 'armed' when he's executed, what does that have to do with anything anyway, its not like i'd agree with executing him if we gave him a sword. its not the medieval times mate, its 2012, we have fucking hoverbikes, i think we can 'collectively' agree that the less of our own race we murder for whatever reason is better can't we? no. we cant. cos of idiots. like you. idiot.

what the fuck is such a big deal about the death penalty
it's a PENALTY of death.

describing what something is has very infrequently led to overwhelming proof that that thing is the right course of action... hence if he was sentenced to sandwich, claiming 'what the fuck is such a big deal about the penalty of sandwich
its a PENALTY of sandwich' does little to support it

see my point. no you dont, cos you're too busy 'raging' to think well.

it's not about "oh this is such hypocrisy, killing someone because they got killed
just a bullshit way to try and declare your own nobility

this doesn't even constitute a sentence.

it's not worth our resources and the risk to rehabilitate and try to "kill what he stood for" you've got to be fucking kidding me
if you're that naive and self righteous you think the just thing to do is to kill the cold-blooded murderer's mean nasty thoughts and turn him into a good person
so he'll see the err of his ways and everyone can rejoice now that the murderous evil thoughts are dead

you have got to be fucking kidding me

i seriously can't rage enough at this post

lol k

so if you have any answers for me that are a) coherent and b) relevant please post, otherwise i wont waste my time making you look silly again.

just fucking kill the piece of shit
letting murderers go free is not the definition of civilized enlightened society
arts, sciences and justice are. safety is
you'll be safe too as long as you don't decide to commit mass murder
our enlightened, merciful practices are not for the criminally insane mass murdering members

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of human civilization would rather remove people like this, than invest in their rehabilitation so that we can be "enlightened and civilized"
call me barbaric, i don't give a fuck.

im not gona call you barbaric, just stupid.

people who think like you are the sole reason we are not more advanced as a race.

its literally true. you still think its biblical times and 'eye for an eye' makes sense.

you're probably a complete pussy aswell which makes it worse cos i bet you cant even stand up for yourself in real life... kinda sad.

Oh wow

I never actually realised people srsly supported the death penalty. Weird

Look at countries that have the death penalty then look at the crime rates. Then look at countries that rehabilitate and look at their crime rates.

If the death penalty was a deterrence for people to commit crimes then why the fuck are their so many people put on deathrow?

Maybe the problem is the penal/justice system itself and not the people.

countries penal systems are also products of the people

if you look at a society or state as a confluence of all the people and rules which make it up then you see that the people themselves are represented by the very fabric that their society is made of

violent groups of people live violent lives with violent laws

peaceful groups of people have peaceful laws and peaceful lives

its not quite that simple ofcourse, especially not when you stretch the group of people from 20 to 200,000,000...