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Genevieve wrote:

12321 wrote:Genevieve you know a lot about electronic music

Sarcasm? :0

Na I was just complimenting you, but I can see how that came across as sarcasm.

magma wrote:I still don't really get what point you're trying to get across.

My point, rather simply (countering what other people have been saying in this thread all along, reread page one if you want), is that the UK didn't create the most groundbreaking music of the 20th century, but reappropriated American music and innovations. American music changed the way people thought about, made and listened to music all through-out the 20th century. Some of these people lived in the UK and made music based on those innovations, that may have been original and creative, but didn't break new grounds the way let's say, the Delta blues or hip-hop did. Just re-read the first page.

wubstep wrote:Not arguing, just still unsure why it's innovation in America and only a regional appropriation when anything original happens over here?

Because by and large, the UK focused its ears towards the US for most of the 20th century. From folk and blues to rock & roll, rnb, jazz to later hip-hop and soul music. Banjos didn't just stumble into the UK's folk music tradition, blue eyed soul wasn't like some sort of random thing that sprung up in the UK that just happened to sound like a British appropriation of American soul music. Sure, the UK made these styles their own too, but they didn't innovate.

I gave a few examples of why the US innovated and the UK appropriated. Hip-hop changed the way people would produce music. Jungle used those production techniques innovated by hip-hop to make different sounding music. So hip-hop changed music and jungle used those changes to make other music. But can we claim that jungle was as innovative as hip-hop was if it didn't change the way people listened or made music the way hip-hop did? It was still just breaks, samples and MCs. Like hip-hop before it.

EliteLennon117 wrote:

Genevieve wrote:

12321 wrote:Genevieve you know a lot about electronic music

Sarcasm? :0

Na I was just complimenting you, but I can see how that came across as sarcasm.

Oh ahaha yeah thanks dude. Wasn't sure after some of the flack I got in this thread :p

but england colonised America so technically we did invent all these things no?

Genevieve wrote:

I made points about how 2-step and jungle weren't innovative and people opposed to me are saying that they're innovative as a self-evident statement. And dubstep? Rrry? It took everything that jungle did and applied to to 2-step. And I'm not arguing for the sake of it. Every bit of original art isn't innovative. This is an original song. It has an interesting structure, vibe, melody, use of vocals, lyrics. But it didn't rewrite or redefine music. It doesn't really do anything that wasn't done before, it just did it with an original execution.

Dubstep didn't innovate sparseness, heavy bass, swingy drums and heavy reverb. But it applied those basic things in a slightly different bpm and format than jungle But you truly, REALLY, believe that dubstep changed music forever? Really? It INNOVATED?

My point is that you are saying like things like hip hop were ground breaking musical innovations (because of sampling breaks and having MCs), and jungle isn't innovative because it is basically copying that in a different way....but where do you draw the line? MCing, breakbeats and re-producing beats was around before hip hop, so why isn't hip hop just copying? Music making technology moved on, you can't say that anyone that uses an electronic drum is copying Kraftwerk any more than you can say anyone using a sampler is copying from hip hop. And I doubt many jungle producers were sitting about and directly trying to copy hip hop production techniques and trying to put their own regional spin on it, it evolved much more directly from hardcore and was more down to the technology available.

It's like saying rock n roll wasn't innovative because it copied ideas and instruments and structure from blues, or blues wasn't because it took from spiritual/folk songs . Was Dub was innovative and ground-breaking for the use of the sound desk as an instrument but not heavy metal and the use of certain guitars and pedals to create new sounds, or time stretching with jungle?- you are just picking and choosing what is innovative and what is copying on very subjective things. Jungle sounds a lot less like hip hop than hip hop does to some funk/disco...death metal sounds nothing like blues, at what point does doing things differently become innovation?

As far as dubstep being innovative- yes it is to a certain extent and you are being very certain about quite uncertain small evolutions in music and just arbitrarily calling some things innovations and some re-appropriation and copies, when people first started making hip hop some sounded very similar to disco, electro directly copied people like kraftwerk, it wasn't very innovative to begin with- there was no sudden huge jump, things move on in small steps with small innovations all the time.

It's weird seeing someone as nationalistic as me on here.

Unfortunately for you the sad truth is most music coming out of the US at the moment is fucking shite. Theres a handful of good producers in the states house/ techno wise, but the best stuff is still coming from here.

Perej wrote:It's weird seeing someone as nationalistic as me on here.

Unfortunately for you the sad truth is most music coming out of the US at the moment is fucking shite. Theres a handful of good producers in the states house/ techno wise, but the best stuff is still coming from here.

Well the problem is that EDM in the states has become a rockstar type scene. IE: Kill the Noise, from my city, great DJ and producer, originally started by spinning breakbeat and hip hop, made DnB as Ewun and got somewhat of a name, moved to electro house/house with Kill the Noise, then jumped the bandwagon to dubstep/bro lately and pop as fuck.
I will say that Jake was one of the few people who showed up to the dubstep shows I threw here back in 05-06 when the states hated dubstep, which looking back was cool as hell.

The US very much has a great scene of underground consistent producers and scenes with quality producers, unfortunately it gets overshadowed by the pop bro big stage shit unlike the UK.

johney wrote:

I'm ashamed to admit that I laughed pretty hard at that

thinking of selling my copy of this actually.

Shum wrote:thinking of selling my copy of this actually.

how much? You in London?

Wait is someone selling some classic Source Direct?
Can I get in on the bidding if it's one I don't own?

"check the rims" lol

The Joy O 12". Also, i'm about as far away from London as you can get.

Shum wrote:The Joy O 12". Also, i'm about as far away from London as you can get.

where?

NZ

ooohhh. ok nvm then

jesus can someone ban these people
FFS

reposting stuff dfrom ther internets IMO
--->
faek knowledge IMO

I'm still a bit lost as to why old electronic music isn't electronic music but stuff that could back you point up is Genevieve,

I mean this IS electronic music



and it's older than hip hop. If you're going to try and argue that it isn't then really you are off in your own little world a little.

Ah, he draws for the Subotnik. I will raise you a Varese or perhaps a Xenakis.

Also, it seems that Disco, House and Techno are painfully missing from this story.

But, it's ok, all of that was shite anyways.