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Chunkie wrote:you wanna talk about not liking gay people - fine

you wanna talk about kicking fuck out of em and leaving em for dead - not so fine IF you are co-ercing people

thanks, beat me to it. difference between 'being gay isn't for me' and 'chichi man fi dead'. the second is fucking pointless. if you don't want violence, then don't chat breeze. simple.

Echo Wanderer wrote:
Yeah.Sure.And Rob Halford and Ozzy should be put to death because they caused some severly depressed teenagers to kill themselves.And while we're at it,why don't we draw and quarter Marilyn Manson,Slipknot,and Korn for Columbine.

How many of their songs were called "kill yourself", "Shoot Up School", "kill Jocks!", or had lyrics saying anything along those lines?

How many dancehall tunes do actually say "shoot gays", "hang the battymen", kill homos etc. A lot.

Can you not see the difference? Expressing an opinion, however radical, is one thing. Suggesting that certain people should be rightfully killed or beaten is another.

If beenie man put out a track called "I Hate Echo Wanderer", and it was all about why he hated you, then that is just free speech.

If it was called "Kill Echo Wanderer", and suggested that all true beleivers in god should kill you if they had a chance, wouldn't you feel a bit different about it?

I think the UK is a bit over authoritarian sometimes, because laws like this will never be applied completely, fairly or correctly in all cases. But I for one see homophobia as equally bad as racism, sexism or any other form of discrimination.

I just hope this doesn't go over the top, as usually seems to happen with PC stuff

Echo Wanderer wrote: The way I see it,if anyone has a problem with Reggae(or any variant of) condemning gay people,then maybe they shouldn't listen to it.In fact,maybe they shouldn't even get down to sampling it or incorporating its influence.Which of course means most Dubstep,Jungle/DnB,House,non-JA/Carribean Reggae,Ska,Dancehall,and Dub,as well as Hip Hop and a whole lot of Rock would be dropped into obscurity.

Echo Wanderer wrote:And what about Rastafarians outside of JA?I have quite a few(and I do mean quite a few) Rastafarian friends who believe homosexuality is wrong,and none of them live in JA.Most have never even been to yard.But things are different here in the US.We have freedom of speech(supposedly),yet the Rastas here have to be made afraid to voice thier opinions,because it might be taken as some sort of "threat".

No man, they should be afraid to voice their opinions, for fear of leaving the impression that the Rasta religion are bunch of hate-mongers.

They should be afraid of making themselves look like 19th century minded simps, for demeaning the actions of their own brothers and sisters.

Seriously, if you think homosexuality is "wrong" in this day and age, you SHOULD be publicly shamed. Or smacked across the face with a dick.

gravious wrote:

Echo Wanderer wrote:
Yeah.Sure.And Rob Halford and Ozzy should be put to death because they caused some severly depressed teenagers to kill themselves.And while we're at it,why don't we draw and quarter Marilyn Manson,Slipknot,and Korn for Columbine.

How many of their songs were called "kill yourself", "Shoot Up School", "kill Jocks!", or had lyrics saying anything along those lines?

How many dancehall tunes do actually say "shoot gays", "hang the battymen", kill homos etc. A lot.

Can you not see the difference? Expressing an opinion, however radical, is one thing. Suggesting that certain people should be rightfully killed or beaten is another.

If beenie man put out a track called "I Hate Echo Wanderer", and it was all about why he hated you, then that is just free speech.

If it was called "Kill Echo Wanderer", and suggested that all true beleivers in god should kill you if they had a chance, wouldn't you feel a bit different about it?

I think the UK is a bit over authoritarian sometimes, because laws like this will never be applied completely, fairly or correctly in all cases. But I for one see homophobia as equally bad as racism, sexism or any other form of discrimination.

I just hope this doesn't go over the top, as usually seems to happen with PC stuff

Wow.

Talk about over the top.

Using me as a personal example is quite a cop out really.I'm not gay.And I am not a Rasta.If Beenie had a problem with me,it would more likely that I DON'T have a problem with gays and that I am a raggamuffin.And if he wrote a song about a single person,there would be more of a reason for his fans to ask why.When it's an all encompassing belief,a belief that billions of people on this planet believe in,it's questioned far less due to the minority status of the non-believers(in this case gays and thier supporters).

But I understand where you are coming from.'Tis a shame you can't,or like most PC fascists - refuse,to see where I come from.Not once in this thread have I condoned ANY use of violence toward anyone.Nor have I expressed any personal hatred toward gays.But I do have a problem with the censorship of the right to free thinking and free belief systems.The points I am trying to make in this thread correlate to the issue of the proposed law.

Keep in mind,however,that Rastafari is deeply rooted in Orthodox Christianity,which also calls for the destruction of "Babylon".Babylon in Rastafari doesn't refer to is a specific place on this earth.It is a metaphor for all things the religion considers "unholy".It's also deeply rooted in the teachings of Marcus Garvey,who spoke of black empowerment and was very anti-gay himself.He was also very against the mixing of the black race,which certainly puts me in a precarious situation.It's like most religions:as a whole,they base thier ideas on the not only humanistic morals,but also on what they consider "natural",ie:procreation.The laws against homosexuality in JA are just that.They have a Christian Orthodox run government that deems sex between men as non-productive to procreation.But that's in JA and most of the Caribbean.

And you lot act like it's only Rastas who are saying this.Most Christians,Muslims,and Jews have doctrines that call for fire to rain down upon the wicked.This applies to thieves,murderers,gluttons,liars,and rapists,not just gay people.But I don't see anyone writing songs saying "Kill The Thieves,Murderers,Gluttons,Liars,and Rapists".And who would disagree with a person who did?Surely no one would be censoring a song like that,would they?

It's for this very reason I despise religion on a whole.Everything is wrong,but nothing is wrong,depending on whatever religion and whatever denomination of that religion a person is.I don't see homosexuality as a crime,but I wouldn't walk into a lot of places of worship - Christian or otherwise - and start spouting off about how gays should have the right to be married,women should have the right to choose,and other left-wing ideals.Mainly out of respect.I know I'd be disrepected if I was holding an activist meeting and they came barging in quoting whatever man-written holy book they believe in.But,I respect devotion as much as I respect life.Because that is,to those people,life.And they should respect my beliefs as well.

Again,it's all about choice.I choose not to listen to Christian Rock,because I personally think it sends out negative messages.To me it sends out a message to wipe the earth clean of those who don't accept Christ as thier saviour.I think it's a very racist type of music also.Christianity has gone into almost every country and bloodily forced the Christian ideal onto billions of people over the centuries,which only reinforces that belief.

I used to play in bands that,lyrically,made diatribes against all organised religion.It was never targeted against a specific one,nor did it make any violent calls for death.Christians would come to the shows with thier little comic books and mini-New Testaments trying to save us.I've also been a spectator at these shows.I've also been told by Christian musicians that,and I quote,"if you're not playing music for Jesus,then you are playing it for the devil AND WILL BURN IN HELL!"What a crock of shit.But that is my opinion.However,I have never been rude or violent to them,because that is thier right.Unfortunately,it doesn't always work in reverse.

And Ozzy and Slipknot and such actually do write songs calling for violence aainst those who hold them down.That's why most times when a kid shoots up a school,they tend to find that they listen to such music,else Halford and Ozzy wouldn't have been brought to the US and charged.The music is dark,full of violent imagery,and is,by self-proclamation,evil.Just because they make it so,doesn't mean they expect anyone to follow it.

Slipknot from'Disasterpiece' wrote: Pull your hands away
I'm gone - goodbye - it's so depressing
Withering away
Take a look - inside - my soul is missing
All I have is dead, so I'll take you with me
Feel like I'm erased - so kill me just in case

Slipknot from'I Am Hated' wrote: The whole world is my enemy - and I'm a walking target
Two times the devil with all the significance
Dragged and raped for the love of a mob
I can't stay - because I can't be stopped
Eat motherfuckers alive who cross us
I know you're all tired of the same ol' bosses
Let me tell you how it's gonna be
I'm gonna kill anyone who steps up in front of me

Marylin Manson:lyrics of 'Lunchbox' wrote: [Kid:] Next motherfucker's gonna get my metal

On we plow
The big bully try to stick his finger in my chest
Try to tell me, tell me he's the best
But I don't really give a good goddamn cause
I got my lunchbox and I'm armed real well
I got my lunchbox and I'm armed real well
I got my lunchbox and I'm armed real well
I wanna grow up
I wanna be a big rock and roll star
I wanna grow up
I wanna be
So no one fucks with me
I got the pencils in my pocket, try to put me down
Wanna go out, gotta get out
To the playground, gonna throw down at the playground
I wanna go out
Next motherfucker gonna get my metal
Next motherfucker gonna get my metal
Next motherfucker gonna get my metal
Next motherfucker
Pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow, pow pow pow
I wanna grow up
I wanna be a big rock and roll star
I wanna grow up
So no one fucks with me

But that's not condoning shooting up a school?

Ozzy Osbourne from 'Suicide Solution' wrote: Breaking laws, knocking doors
But theres no one at home
Made your bed, rest your head
But you lie there and moan
Where to hide, suicide is the only way out
Dont you know what its really about

Hmm...this doesn't sound like a call for suicide to me.It sounds more like a story of a desperate man.

Two totally different things.One is interpreted properly,yet nothing is done.The other is misinterpreted,and call for arrest and conviction have been made.

Again,I cannot stress enough that we as individual humans make our own choices in life.There are a lot of Rastas in this world who do not agree with homosexuality,but they also don't bellieve in violence toward any man,no matter how wicked they be,only believe that the gays' time will come on the day of judgement.Just like 90% of the kids who listen to Nu-Metal aren't gonna flip out and shoot up a school or commit suicide,yet they still feel alienated and hate those they feel "persecute" them.

thesynthesist wrote: No man, they should be afraid to voice their opinions, for fear of leaving the impression that the Rasta religion are bunch of hate-mongers.

They should be afraid of making themselves look like 19th century minded simps, for demeaning the actions of their own brothers and sisters.

Then that should go for Christians,Muslims,and Jews then too.Also,Republicans,Neo-sizan and the KKK,Black empowerment groups,hardline feminists,radical LGBT groups,Right To Lifers....

It's that very thinking that is creating these new laws.As if it's like,"if no one is allowed to have an opinion,no one will ever hate again".That seems like a fantasy world.

And additionally,as with any religion,"brothers and sisters" refers to people only within that religion for the most part.I have found that it's mostly the people who don't adhere to organised religion and its doctrines believe in a world family.I know I do.

thesynthesist wrote:Seriously, if you think homosexuality is "wrong" in this day and age, you SHOULD be publicly shamed. Or smacked across the face with a dick.

steppo wrote:we have the first amendment to protect us over here in the united sta..

oh fuck, nevermind.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GeU8KvJcDpY

In our country speech is protected FOR us, not FROM us... always remember you have the freedom OF speech, religion, etc... not FROM them

And to Echo Wanderer, it seems as though you forget which party freed the slaves and ended wars for the last 200 or so years before 1994... a strict constructionist(i.e. libertarian constitutionalist) truly believes that if you just follow the constitution, everyone will be free. Including gay people.

****OBJECTIONABLE HATE SPEECH BELOW... YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!****

"Are there any ****** here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any ****** here tonight?" I know there's one ******, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two ******. And between those two ****** sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three ******. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven ******? I got seven ******. Sold American. I pass with seven ******, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the ****** in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "****** ****** ****** ****** ******" to every ****** he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "****** ****** ****** ****** ******" 'til ****** didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a ****** at school."

- From Julian Barry's screenplay for "Lenny"
can be seen/heard in Lenny Bruce: Swear to tell the truth 1998


[EDIT] Just to be clear, I don't support Racism, Sexism, Classism, IsmIsm... or any other Ism's out there... I was trying to make a point and Lenny Bruce is a VERY respected voice, so take it for what it's worth--just a point.

NoMoreComaStep wrote: And to Echo Wanderer, it seems as though you forget which party freed the slaves and ended wars for the last 200 or so years before 1994... a strict constructionist(i.e. libertarian constitutionalist) truly believes that if you just follow the constitution, everyone will be free. Including gay people.

I know my history man.It was actually the Republican party who forced Lincoln into freeing the slaves.What good did it do?It freed some of them,but Lincoln and those who were higher in the economic tier of the colonies still had slaves for a number of years despite the Emancipation Proclamation.The oppression still exists today in a much milder form called "project housing","racial quotas in the workplace",and "glass ceilings".

The Republicans used to be the good guys in this country and the Democrats the guys in black hats.But this isn't 200+ years ago.This is 2007.Somewhere along the line,the Republicans lost thier way due to greed,religion,and power(the worst).The old libertarians are gone and the new align "liberty" with "democratic process",which coincidentally,doesn't mean "Democrat".

BTW,Lenny Bruce was as spot on about people as Richard Pryor and George Carlin.I'd have to throw Chappelle in there too.

Echo Wanderer wrote:Then that should go for Christians,Muslims,and Jews then too.Also,Republicans,Neo-sizan and the KKK,Black empowerment groups,hardline feminists,radical LGBT groups,Right To Lifers....

Have you read what Ive written in this thread?

The point, of what i said, is that YES! All of your named groups should be publicly shamed and dissed for taking idiotic 10th century opinions on things like gays, and other races.

I certainly dont think there should be a law about the speech, but people should know, at this point in the collective conciousness of man, that if you stick your dumbass out in the air, and you have "I hate gays and dead unborn babies" written on your cheeks, then you have to expect the general CIVILIZED public to call you what you are: A FUCKING MORON.

Morons dont go to jail. They spend their lives alone, and sad. Which is where they belong. There's plenty of room in the public discourse for moronic alternative views. But you might want to know what the general concensus is gonna be in the room, before you start yelling your opinions about.

All the groups you mentioned can say what they please. But I think we all know which ones look the fool when they do.

thesynthesist wrote:

Echo Wanderer wrote:Then that should go for Christians,Muslims,and Jews then too.Also,Republicans,Neo-sizan and the KKK,Black empowerment groups,hardline feminists,radical LGBT groups,Right To Lifers....

Have you read what Ive written in this thread?

Why yes.Yes I have.Have you?

thesynthesist wrote:The point, of what i said, is that YES! All of your named groups should be publicly shamed and dissed for taking idiotic 10th century opinions on things like gays, and other races.

Obviously,I agree.

thesynthesist wrote:I certainly dont think there should be a law about the speech, but people should know, at this point in the collective conciousness of man, that if you stick your dumbass out in the air, and you have "I hate gays and dead unborn babies" written on your cheeks, then you have to expect the general CIVILIZED public to call you what you are: A FUCKING MORON.

Well,what what some people called civilised,another may not.Just because someone thinks gay anal sex is "a wonderrific,fluffy bunny,compassionate act of love",doesn't change the fact that someone else might find it to be primally barbaric and disgusting.

About a year ago,I almost lost one of my best friends over the argument of what "civilisation" is.She actually made the argument that white people,alone,created civilisation.I told her that Africa is historically known as the "Birthplace or Cradle of Civilisation".She actually asked how,considering that the Romans were so much smarter than everyone else and educated the world with philosophy and art,and later Christianity.I told her it had existed in Africa for millenia before Rome.She simply referred to Africans as savages.

Before I stopped talking to her for a few months after that last statement,I left the debate by telling her that the very cause of the fall of Rome wasn't just economic or political disputes,it was largely due to societal breakdown.It fell because there was massive savage behaviour going on.Not only was it full of immoral debauchery,but there was a lack of any defined law.It became a humanistic culture.Which basically means "I get mine,no matter what!"Two tribes going to war in Africa over some cattle is far less barbaric than two Roman higher consulates fighting over who'll be fucking a 10 year old boy in the arse,just because they woke up and felt like it after a round or two with each other.

(Btw...we're cool now.I just thought it was such a racist thing to say coming from a white person who has a best friend for over twelve years that is mixed.Miscommunication really.I read too far into it,and she didn't have the right words.)

thesynthesist wrote:Morons dont go to jail. They spend their lives alone, and sad. Which is where they belong. There's plenty of room in the public discourse for moronic alternative views. But you might want to know what the general concensus is gonna be in the room, before you start yelling your opinions about.

Are you referring to me here?Have you even read what I have written?

Echo Wanderer wrote:I don't see homosexuality as a crime,but I wouldn't walk into a lot of places of worship - Christian or otherwise - and start spouting off about how gays should have the right to be married,women should have the right to choose,and other left-wing ideals.Mainly out of respect.I know I'd be disrepected if I was holding an activist meeting and they came barging in quoting whatever man-written holy book they believe in.But,I respect devotion as much as I respect life.Because that is,to those people,life.And they should respect my beliefs as well.

thesynthesist wrote:All the groups you mentioned can say what they please. But I think we all know which ones look the fool when they do.

Every one of those groups looks the fool to someone.And most times it not the whole group,merely an individual,that should be chastised.And really,that's how people should be looked at.There are radicals in every one of those groups mentioned.I think the world has forgotten that we are all individual thinkers and assume that by getting involved with groups that have a common political/economic/religious/sociological/racial/sexuality platform,they should all be treated the same,no matter what the individual viewpoints are in the group.

Let me just say, that I think this is a great discussion.

And no, I was NOT calling you a moron, Echo.

But I think your point about Anal Sex makes my point also: that the opposition to Gays comes from the position of "Yucky butt sex", and not, who does that person love.

It really is about taking love and attachment OUT of the equation when the topic is rounded down to "man on man butt sex".

I dont like the idea myself, but I'll be damned if I or anyone else can tell you who to love.

I think we can pretty much agree that anyone who thinks that they are the concresence of civilization, is likely a bigot.

I would suggest that anyone who would feel the need to identify or join with one of the many groups you mentioned earlier, likely sees themselves in that type of light.

tl;dr @ this whole thread. someone talk about jeff, or stupid toys from the 50s or something... geez.

the NWO is arriving

thesynthesist wrote:Let me just say, that I think this is a great discussion.

Yes.As....

Emcee Child wrote: Deep topic for the ninja forum.. gonna be watching this one close.. lets av some propper disscussion here folks..

thesynthesist wrote:And no, I was NOT calling you a moron, Echo.

I know.

thesynthesist wrote:But I think your point about Anal Sex makes my point also: that the opposition to Gays comes from the position of "Yucky butt sex", and not, who does that person love.

Great minds,mate,great minds...

thesynthesist wrote:It really is about taking love and attachment OUT of the equation when the topic is rounded down to "man on man butt sex".

Pretty much.I mean...something does have to be said for the idea that male and female were meant to be together for procreation.Even animals know that(except asexual worms and such).However,we are human,and we know the difference between procreation and pleasure.And that is where the religious right choose to stake thier claim:in the "sins of the flesh" mentality.If it feels good to ya,it must be wrong.These are the same people who preach abstinance/no premarital sex,the evils of masturbation,and having 2nd graders expelled for holding hands.

thesynthesist wrote:I dont like the idea myself, but I'll be damned if I or anyone else can tell you who to love.

Love is love.Sex is only a bonus.How someone gets that bonus?It's not my business.

thesynthesist wrote:I would suggest that anyone who would feel the need to identify or join with one of the many groups you mentioned earlier, likely sees themselves in that type of light.

Well...everyone needs a "family" of like minded individuals,no matter how radical they may be.It's human nature and that's why I feel they have a way to feel and think as they do.I may not agree with whatever thier philosophies are,but as long as it doesn't affect me,my money,or my time,then they can feel free to be bastards for all I care.

Misk wrote:tl;dr @ this whole thread. someone talk about jeff, or stupid toys from the 50s or something... geez.

Jeff is a stupid toy from the '50s.

You happy now?

jim wrote:

Echo Wanderer wrote:I just can't understand why or how battymen can get all in a huff about someone's spirtual beliefs

Not liking gays isn't a spiritual belief.

it can be, if you follow the bible or "a" bible in which sexual intercourse is a strictly functional thing to breed.
how could a homosexual or a lesbian ever add to the world if they don't breed?

this is why all extreme religious people hate homosexuals

Echo Wanderer wrote:

Misk wrote:tl;dr @ this whole thread. someone talk about jeff, or stupid toys from the 50s or something... geez.

Jeff is a stupid toy from the '50s.

You happy now?

no. I'll never be happy without you. ... ...

Misk wrote:

Echo Wanderer wrote:

Misk wrote:tl;dr @ this whole thread. someone talk about jeff, or stupid toys from the 50s or something... geez.

Jeff is a stupid toy from the '50s.

You happy now?

no. I'll never be happy without you. ... ...

aww....

Slothrop wrote:And what counts as that depends a lot on context - eg if I'm a lone nutter ranting on a street corner then I can probably say a lot more than if I'm addressing a crowd at a NF rally or something.

First the climate protestors... then the war protestors... then those who aren't protesting...

"When they took the right to bear arms, I said nothing because I didn't own guns.
When they supressed the media, I said nothing because I don't read the paper.
When they took away my free speech, I could say nothing, and there was noone left to defend me"

If every day citizens think that small encroachments of liberty don't affect them, you should consider that MOST fascists and dictators don't come to power by force... they are usually freely elected and gradually take away the rights of the people. Starting with the right to bear arms(I'm looking at the UK kru here... I can't believe you stand for this), then the right to assemble... then the right to speak... then the right to live.

It's time to wake the hell up, people.

Pablex wrote:it can be, if you follow the bible or "a" bible in which sexual intercourse is a strictly functional thing to breed.
how could a homosexual or a lesbian ever add to the world if they don't breed?

this is why all extreme religious people hate homosexuals

If you follow the Old Testament of the bible, and believe it to be the infallible word of God, you have no choice but to say homosexuals are evil and going to hell. It clearly says so in Leviticus. This is why I don't subscribe to Christianity as a whole, but the new testament philosophies about honoring your parents, loving thy neighbor, healing the sick, etc.. I try and do that. I don't think Government should be legislating and FORCING citizens to take care of each other though--nor should the Government be forced to do anything other than uphold the laws.

We get all the Government we pay for... the answer is to stop paying your taxes.