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pete bubonic wrote: London does exist in it's own bubble a bit though, you only need to drive an hour or two out of the city to hear Toasty and S&D played alongside Loefah and Mala.

Don't agree at all tbh.

The range of music played at nights such as FWD, DOTS, Platform 1 etc. is massively wide. Old Garage, Dub, Hip-Hop, Acid House, Hardcore - I've heard dropped at London nights by smaller name DJs to 'the big dogs', and to a good response aswell.

I can honestly say that i've heard a much wider variety of music getting played at London Dubstep nights compared to Bristol.

Blackdown wrote:well, something like Mala's "Lean Forward" has that housey, organ-lead riff, but it's slightly dark and sour, compared to the warmth of lots of house...

Yeah I totally understand what you mean in a dubstep context, I was just more interested to know if there was actually some sort of sub genre of house known as dark house?

rekorder wrote:

pete bubonic wrote: London does exist in it's own bubble a bit though, you only need to drive an hour or two out of the city to hear Toasty and S&D played alongside Loefah and Mala.

Don't agree at all tbh.

The range of music played at nights such as FWD, DOTS, Platform 1 etc. is massively wide. Old Garage, Dub, Hip-Hop, Acid House, Hardcore - I've heard dropped at London nights by smaller name DJs to 'the big dogs', and to a good response aswell.

I can honestly say that i've heard a much wider variety of music getting played at London Dubstep nights compared to Bristol.

Really? What big names play the breakstep producers mentioned in the thread? Because I'd be there in a flash if man like Loefah, Mala or Rusko were playing stuff like Protocol X, S&D, Toasty etc, I'd be there in a flash. In Bristol you have guys like Kidkut (Immerse), ThinKing (Reduction), Wascal (Hammer), Peverelist (Punch Drunk), Headhunter (Tempa) all who are playing proper variety in their sets and are big (if not, getting bigger) names. In London I would catch people like S&D, SLT, Oneman. I'm not sayingLodnon doesn't have guys that play acriety, but there is a definite leaning to playing certain sounds and producers much more in London than anywhere else in the world. Be it Bristol or otherwise.

rekorder wrote:

pete bubonic wrote: London does exist in it's own bubble a bit though, you only need to drive an hour or two out of the city to hear Toasty and S&D played alongside Loefah and Mala.

Don't agree at all tbh.

The range of music played at nights such as FWD, DOTS, Platform 1 etc. is massively wide. Old Garage, Dub, Hip-Hop, Acid House, Hardcore - I've heard dropped at London nights by smaller name DJs to 'the big dogs', and to a good response aswell.

I can honestly say that i've heard a much wider variety of music getting played at London Dubstep nights compared to Bristol.

Oh seen sorry just reread, you mean cross genre. I was only speaking in a dubstep context.

Blackdown wrote:

elgato wrote:whats your definition of it? obviously its not something easily expressed, but i'd be interested...

that there is a certain demographic of people (London, of mixed races, working class-centric) that generate very exciting UK music in fairly short cycles, that use a loosely similar set of reference points (UK, US and JA black music or music of black origin) using a loosely similar set of mediums (traditionally soundsystems and pirate radio, but online technology has evolved massively since the 'nuum theory was suggested).

hence:

rave/hardcore>jungle/d&b>UKG>dubstep/grime and now funky.

the patterns within each of these scenes are hard to ignore, which lends weight to the theory that they are all connected/related.

I've got a lot of time for the concept, but the phrase 'hardcore continuum' seems almost totally inappropriate and misleading. In a musical sense (which is the one that people are going to be first to reach for, especially since there's a genre name rather than a demographic or a place in the phrase) it's almost the opposite of a continuum. It's more like a virus that infects existing styles of music, introduces a whole lot of new genes and sets them reproducing and mutating on fast forward. Or a hothouse, where scenes and genres grow to improbable sizes in new directions in very little time.

To me, 'hardcore continuum' sounds like it means a direct line of musical evolution from hardcore through jungle to garage through grime to funky with relatively little outside input, which just doesn't exist in musical terms. It sounds like it means speed garage evolved out of jungle rather than out of a junglization of house / garage and so on. It maybe made a lot more sense as a description of rave -> jungle -> d&b. Also hardcore actually seems a bit like the odd one out compared to jungle, UKG, grime, dubstep, funky etc.

My other big complaint is that a lot of people who do nuum-centric writing seem to start off with a theory and only listen to the music and the people only to fit them into their theoretical structure, ignoring anything that doesn't fit in as being probably uncharacteristic and unimportant. But Martin's blog / column is pretty much the exact opposite of that - I really respect his focus on actually talking to the people involved and looking at the whole range of music out there rather than jumping to generalize and extrapolate as quickly as possible.

Gotta say I'm not all that convinced by these slowed-down jungle tunes, the breaks sound almost too energetic for the tempo the way they're cut.

Which confuses me since I used to think dubstep-as-jungle would be a great idea.

Foundational wrote:'Quest, Geiom, and Mala's dark house influences'.

That phrase sums up so much of what is good and right in the world I get a little bit happier every time I read it.

Slothrop wrote: I've got a lot of time for the concept, but the phrase 'hardcore continuum' seems almost totally inappropriate and misleading.

True, surely it's 'Ardcore Continuum.

Slothrop wrote: It maybe made a lot more sense as a description of rave -> jungle -> d&b. Also hardcore actually seems a bit like the odd one out compared to jungle, UKG, grime, dubstep, funky etc.

I wouldn't agree with that, are you may be confusing rave with hardcore or perhaps hardcore with happy hardcore? Rave was never a genre at the time, until things like this came along....

stanton wrote:

Slothrop wrote: It maybe made a lot more sense as a description of rave -> jungle -> d&b. Also hardcore actually seems a bit like the odd one out compared to jungle, UKG, grime, dubstep, funky etc.

I wouldn't agree with that, are you may be confusing rave with hardcore or perhaps hardcore with happy hardcore? Rave was never a genre at the time, until things like this came along....

When I say 'ardkore I'm probably mostly thinking SL2, early Prodge, Q-Bass, 2 Bad Mice, Hyper On, maybe a bit of Belgian stuff, that sort of thing. I tend to assume ardkore was still a fairly ravey scene - pills and no shirts and 'aving it major sort of scenario, where later things developed a bit more skrewface or a bit more upwardly mobile sophistication, became a bit more 'clubby' and a bit less 'ravey'. That's mostly second hand though so I'm willing to be told otherwise.

Slothrop wrote: When I say 'ardkore I'm probably mostly thinking SL2, early Prodge, Q-Bass, 2 Bad Mice, Hyper On, maybe a bit of Belgian stuff, that sort of thing. I tend to assume ardkore was still a fairly ravey scene - pills and no shirts and 'aving it major sort of scenario, where later things developed a bit more skrewface or a bit more upwardly mobile sophistication, became a bit more 'clubby' and a bit less 'ravey'. That's mostly second hand though so I'm willing to be told otherwise.

They were concurrent. There were people making really dark tunes, people making really happy tunes, commercial tunes the whole lot. There was a lot more variation in what people played at parties and in sets back then. The split sorta thing came a bit later on.

music is completely subjective by nature, so this talk about martin having to speak the "truth" is a bit much. sure, he has a responsibility in making sure his statements are based on certain things, but other than that you have to take it as his point of view. back in the day, there was riddim.ca, gutterbreakz and blackdown. these days the door's been blown wide open as far as blogging and columns; so no one should be getting worked up over one persons opinion on things.

i don't agree with everything said in all of martin's columns, but it's worth pointing out that some of the most interesting (and now historic) debates that we've had on this whole site have been triggered by his blog, so that in itself is something to recognize.

if you think martin is opinionated, you should read more of simon reynolds. he's the button pushing king of the hill.

Chef wrote:Some serious day dreaming and big assumptions that are wrong being made in this topic.

totally agree.

Ah yes, simon reynolds the bliss blogger. He being the originator of the 'nuum, having dubious taste in music and a former penchant for chemically enhanced electronica. The last of a dying breed of ol skool tastemakers. Don't think he's much into the d

Blackdown wrote:

epithet wrote:But anyway, where's the harm in including 'breakstep' as a term ?

because some of the acts people use it to refer to, like it. others dont. while it's imprecise, i'm happy not to use it too much.

C'mon blackdown you don't use it at all. Who doesnt want to be included under the breakstep banner that voluntarily prohibits you from using the term ?

NAME AND SHAME

OK I admit it, Burial gets the right hump!

Blackdown wrote:OK I admit it, Burial gets the right hump!

lol.

rave/hardcore>jungle/d&b>UKG>dubstep/grime and now funky.

i dunno it just seems broken has more influence from rave/jungle/garage etc than funky does..

http://www.myspace.com/markdeclivelowe - check 'turn the light'.. really funky

http://www.myspace.com/sonarcircle - check 'faster than the sun' and also 'BnE 1 dub' which is sort of on a dark broken break flex

http://www.myspace.com/richardspaven - check 'promise is'

http://www.myspace.com/afronaught - check 'dreams come true' a bugz tune


http://www.myspace.com/2000black
http://www.mysapce.com/goyamusic

this is the sound that id personally prefer to be pushed more, it has more relevance to what i am and have been into for years and i can only imagine its the same thing for a lot of heads making/listenin to funky.? funky has an emphasis on 4/4 rhythms whereas broken has a more, well, broken rhythm structure, like jungle/2step/grime/dubstep..

Still waiting...

epithet wrote: Who doesnt want to be included under the breakstep banner that voluntarily prohibits you from using the term ?

just got to this,

and know that i will be posting soon...

Sorry, but i smell bullshit coming from your quarter blackdown. It just seems like a convenient copout claiming to respect the wishes of a select few while decieving the public at large of the *ahem* true roots of dubstep

Foundational wrote:

Blackdown wrote:well, something like Mala's "Lean Forward" has that housey, organ-lead riff, but it's slightly dark and sour, compared to the warmth of lots of house...

Yeah I totally understand what you mean in a dubstep context, I was just more interested to know if there was actually some sort of sub genre of house known as dark house?

That would be the new breed of (UK) progressive house, which was very popular in the early 00's. Let me know if you want the names of some tunes to check out.

As for the argument this article has sparked...

Breakstep (S&D, Slaughter Mob, early Distance, etc) always seemed more influenced by modern DnB, breaks and garage.

The sound Cluekid & LD are doing now is pretty much all jungle with dubstep's rhythmic techniques and tempo. Notice not just the cut-up amens, but also the pads and vocals.

That said, Quiet Storm - Tribute 10, which was released quite a while back, had a very strong jungle influence too. So while CK&LD may not have been the absolute first, it'll be interesting to see if their sound turns into a trend in dubstep. God knows it's needed to counteract the wobbly stuff.