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Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:23 pm
by kidlogic
Donkey wrote:kidlogic wrote:Donkey wrote:
tbh that is something that has been retrospectively applied to him as a pioneer, when at the time he was making rhythm and blues, as were carl perkins, elvis presley etc. It may be seen as the precursor to rock 'n roll but it wasn't seen like that at the time.
Stop being so contrary for the sake of it. Every title is applied in retrospect. No one comes up for a name of a kind of music before its ever made. It all has to start somewhere as something else.
Dubstep wasnt called dubstep until a few years ago even though the pioneering tracks far predate the term.
I am not being 'contrary' sorry for having an opinion that differs from you.
A lot of the reason for the classification of chuck berry et al as rock n' roll is that a lot of the english bands - the stones, beatles, yardbirds etc - covered a lot of r&b on their early records. It doesn't make it rock n roll, despite having a clear influence.
Well, when the man is inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as one of the inventors and pioneers of Rock and Roll, I think (as does the whole of the music industry) that qualifies him as being Rock and Roll.
The english bands you mentioned werent even around yet when he came up with the sound that would shape and become Rock N Roll. The Beatles formed in '57, the Stones in '62 and etc... much later than the early '50s when Chuck was signed to Chess for the first time and creating his personal sound. Im really not even sure why you mentioned them. They have nothing to do with Chuck Berry and the emergence of Rock and Roll from Rythym and Blues. The term Rock and Roll was even coined before they exsited, in '56 by Alan Freed.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:32 pm
by donkey
You can quote sources all day, but again, to me, the music he made was r&b, which going back to my original point is nothing like modern r&b.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:44 pm
by kidlogic
Donkey wrote:You can quote sources all day, but again, to me, the music he made was r&b, which going back to my original point is nothing like modern r&b.
Actually, your original point, if I remember right, is that 3rd wave ska isnt ska, which it is.
I will agree that modern R&B is nothing like Rythym and Blues, although it really isnt trying to be.
You are right though, you can have an opinion, even if its flawed. Opinions are not fact.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:52 pm
by donkey
kidlogic wrote:Donkey wrote:You can quote sources all day, but again, to me, the music he made was r&b, which going back to my original point is nothing like modern r&b.
Actually, your original point, if I remember right, is that 3rd wave ska isnt ska, which it is.
I will agree that modern R&B is nothing like Rythym and Blues, although it really isnt trying to be.
You are right though, you can have an opinion, even if its flawed. Opinions are not fact.
To me, 3rd wave ska isn't ska. I was trying to kill this discussion as it was getting further away from the original post and it was about r&b at that point.
I could go a lot more into this but frankly I can't be arsed, and I am going out. You seem to fail to grasp what I was saying, so there isn't a lot of point.
Anyway...
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:56 pm
by diss04
tyler james
he's like nu-jazz/nu-ska and me likey him 'cos he's from canning town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg4yWTm3gks
oh and
natty
is another badaman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFYsmivi_g
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:02 pm
by kidlogic
Donkey wrote:kidlogic wrote:Donkey wrote:You can quote sources all day, but again, to me, the music he made was r&b, which going back to my original point is nothing like modern r&b.
Actually, your original point, if I remember right, is that 3rd wave ska isnt ska, which it is.
I will agree that modern R&B is nothing like Rythym and Blues, although it really isnt trying to be.
You are right though, you can have an opinion, even if its flawed. Opinions are not fact.
To me, 3rd wave ska isn't ska. I was trying to kill this discussion as it was getting further away from the original post and it was about r&b at that point.
I could go a lot more into this but frankly I can't be arsed, and I am going out. You seem to fail to grasp what I was saying, so there isn't a lot of point.
Anyway...
And round and round it goes... its one thing to say "SuperTechStepCore to me isnt really a genre" but these are established genre terms you're talking about. Not a matter of opinion.
Aside from that, you sound as though you dont know much about 3rd wave ska, or you wouldnt say that it wasnt ska. In fact, some Mighty Mighty Bosstones just came on... lemme listen for a second... syncopated rythyms, clean bouncy guitars, punchy drums, horns, midtempo, multi part harmonies, walking bass... sounds pretty much like ska to me.
I get what you're saying, which is essentially that your opinion is different from the masses. Its like my opinion that modern country music, aside from being crap, isnt really country music, although the name and popular opinion say otherwise. Its my opinion, but its wrong.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:57 pm
by slothrop
Donkey wrote:Also the first person to record nyabinghi drumming on a record (the original Oh Carolina with Count Ossie's drummers).
That's got to be one of the most important single recording sessions in history. It really was where everything started...
On an unrelated thing, it's quite interesting how much the early ska stuff has in common with jump blues people like Louis Jordan. Apparently he was very big on the soundsystems before people got round to recording Jamaican acts, and it's quite weird hearing early ska that has as much in common with that sort of stuff as it does with later reggae...
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:08 pm
by donkey
Slothrop wrote:Donkey wrote:Also the first person to record nyabinghi drumming on a record (the original Oh Carolina with Count Ossie's drummers).
That's got to be one of the most important single recording sessions in history. It really was where everything started...
On an unrelated thing, it's quite interesting how much the early ska stuff has in common with jump blues people like Louis Jordan. Apparently he was very big on the soundsystems before people got round to recording Jamaican acts, and it's quite weird hearing early ska that has as much in common with that sort of stuff as it does with later reggae...
Ska came out of R&B really...it was R&B that was played by all the Sound Systems, however to get the advantage of exclusives they started recording local jazz musicians etc and this evolved into ska..
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:58 pm
by reverendmedia
caught Dokkebi Q recently, they played a new tune that's some heavy ska business. skank out!!
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:30 am
by echo wanderer
Donkey wrote:Slothrop wrote:Donkey wrote:Also the first person to record nyabinghi drumming on a record (the original Oh Carolina with Count Ossie's drummers).
That's got to be one of the most important single recording sessions in history. It really was where everything started...
On an unrelated thing, it's quite interesting how much the early ska stuff has in common with jump blues people like Louis Jordan. Apparently he was very big on the soundsystems before people got round to recording Jamaican acts, and it's quite weird hearing early ska that has as much in common with that sort of stuff as it does with later reggae...
Ska came out of R&B really...it was R&B that was played by all the Sound Systems, however to get the advantage of exclusives they started recording local jazz musicians etc and this evolved into ska..
Actually,Ska came out of Mento.But I take it you already knew that.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:14 am
by echo wanderer
Donkey wrote: a lot of the english bands - the stones, beatles, yardbirds etc - covered a lot of r&b on their early records. It doesn't make it rock n roll, despite having a clear influence.
kidlogic wrote:
The english bands you mentioned werent even around yet when he came up with the sound that would shape and become Rock N Roll. The Beatles formed in '57, the Stones in '62 and etc... much later than the early '50s when Chuck was signed to Chess for the first time and creating his personal sound. Im really not even sure why you mentioned them. They have nothing to do with Chuck Berry and the emergence of Rock and Roll from Rythym and Blues. The term Rock and Roll was even coined before they exsited, in '56 by Alan Freed.
You're both right and wrong.
The Who classified themselves as "Maximum R&B",yet they played Rock'N'Roll.However,Rock'N'Roll had been a term for quite a while by that point.R&B is a term that dates back to the 40s,but was a basically a blanket term for any sort of contemporary(at the time) black music,from Jazz to Blues to Gospel.Rock'N'Roll had a very distinct sound in it's inception,and is most heavily based on Jump Blues,Boogie Woogie,Doo Wop,and Southern Folk/Country music influence more than R&B,which encompassed mainly Jazz,Blues,and Gospel.
Oh,and Alan Freed coined the term Rock'N'Roll in '51,not '56.And if you want to get deeper than that,Roy Brown had an R&B tune around '47 called "Good Rockin' Tonight"(my grandfather owned the 78rpm of it).Chuck Berry,Carl Perkins,and Bo Diddley were definitely Rock'N'Roll as they didn't come around until about '55,though they were still called R&B,simply because the term was more widely known than "Rock'N'Roll".
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:17 am
by tempest
So... In essence, 'genres' mean fuck all except to help you find the music you want to hear..
So its all good
Oh and lots of ska is mad fun and gives me that skank about the place vibe
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:43 am
by echo wanderer
What surprises me in this thread is that no one mentions the "2.5 Generation" of Ska.Bands like Fishbone,The Untouchables,Bad Brains,The Skeletones,Voodoo Glowskulls,Oingo Boingo(we used to call them "Gothic Ska"),The Toasters,Skankin' Pickle,Operation Ivy,24/7 Spyz, all predated the Bosstones,RBF,Rancid,Dancehall Crashers,and No Doubt by 3 to 8 years('83-'88 era Ska).
3rd Wave was based on that sound as much as 2Tone.That Mid-80s sound brought a more aggressive element into the sound by adding more of a Punk edge.The official 3rd wavers just ran with it a little more.There has been a 4th Wave coming in the last few years with the likes of The Aggrolites,RX Bandits,Buddha Bomb,and Police And Thieves(AWESOME band fro L.A.!!!Think the I-Threes meets Stax/Volt and Motown inna Rocksteady stylee!!).
It doesn't matter what generation of Ska it is,it's still Ska.And Ska is happy music.It never deserved to be broken down and reclassified as say...Heavy Metal and Electronic Dance Music loves to do to itself.It's just music to have a good time to.Ska will never die because of this.So it would be nice if everyone here just agreed that that is what it is!
[Oh,and before anyone starts talking shit or doubting my Ska credentials(as you people are doing to each other),I took college classes with members of some of those bands,partied with,and played shows with them,as well as seeing the early 3rd wave bands in tiny venues and backyard parties when they were just starting in '90-91.I've seen the Skatalites a few times with nearly all the original members,as well as Laurel Aitken,Desmond Dekker,and quite a few other notables of all three waves.I also went to Boingo's Halloween shows for years,including thier final performance.]
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:19 am
by nousd
yep, the dubstep via reggae roots alright:
Donkey wrote:
SIR COXSONE DODD SKA
A ska mix featuring the productions of the great Sir Coxsone Dodd.
http://ska_nick.podomatic.com/enclosure/2008-06-07T15_55_50-07_00.mp3
Non-Carib ska died in the arse from Two-Tone, Specials, pork-pie hats, suits and rude boy posturing...all fun for players
but boring for meself.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:55 am
by donkey
Echo Wanderer wrote:Donkey wrote:Slothrop wrote:Donkey wrote:Also the first person to record nyabinghi drumming on a record (the original Oh Carolina with Count Ossie's drummers).
That's got to be one of the most important single recording sessions in history. It really was where everything started...
On an unrelated thing, it's quite interesting how much the early ska stuff has in common with jump blues people like Louis Jordan. Apparently he was very big on the soundsystems before people got round to recording Jamaican acts, and it's quite weird hearing early ska that has as much in common with that sort of stuff as it does with later reggae...
Ska came out of R&B really...it was R&B that was played by all the Sound Systems, however to get the advantage of exclusives they started recording local jazz musicians etc and this evolved into ska..
Actually,Ska came out of Mento.But I take it you already knew that.
That's not true, it was an influence obviously, but the main inspiration was the american r&b of the day that was being played by the sound systems.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:03 am
by kidlogic
Echo Wanderer wrote: What surprises me in this thread is that no one mentions the "2.5 Generation" of Ska.Bands like Fishbone,The Untouchables,Bad Brains,The Skeletones,Voodoo Glowskulls,Oingo Boingo(we used to call them "Gothic Ska"),The Toasters,Skankin' Pickle,Operation Ivy,24/7 Spyz, all predated the Bosstones,RBF,Rancid,Dancehall Crashers,and No Doubt by 3 to 8 years('83-'88 era Ska).
3rd Wave was based on that sound as much as 2Tone.That Mid-80s sound brought a more aggressive element into the sound by adding more of a Punk edge.The official 3rd wavers just ran with it a little more.There has been a 4th Wave coming in the last few years with the likes of The Aggrolites,RX Bandits,Buddha Bomb,and Police And Thieves(AWESOME band fro L.A.!!!Think the I-Threes meets Stax/Volt and Motown inna Rocksteady stylee!!).
It doesn't matter what generation of Ska it is,it's still Ska.And Ska is happy music.It never deserved to be broken down and reclassified as say...Heavy Metal and Electronic Dance Music loves to do to itself.It's just music to have a good time to.Ska will never die because of this.So it would be nice if everyone here just agreed that that is what it is!
[Oh,and before anyone starts talking shit or doubting my Ska credentials(as you people are doing to each other),I took college classes with members of some of those bands,partied with,and played shows with them,as well as seeing the early 3rd wave bands in tiny venues and backyard parties when they were just starting in '90-91.I've seen the Skatalites a few times with nearly all the original members,as well as Laurel Aitken,Desmond Dekker,and quite a few other notables of all three waves.I also went to Boingo's Halloween shows for years,including thier final performance.]
Dude. Thank you. I got a few dates wrong, but you have essentially said what I was trying to. Alsom, I was kinda lumping the 2.5 bands in with the 3rd wave simply because they were closer to that era. A lot of those bands are some of my favorites... but I agree. Ska is ska is ska is good happy music, no matter when or where it came from.
Fishbone, Op Ivy, Toasters, Skankin Pickle, Bosstones, Stubborn All Stars... sounds like my cd collection back in the day.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:16 am
by legend4ry
badger wrote:it's not wrong to like anything. except badger
Fixed.
Oasis are amazing.
SKA is big as well!
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:37 am
by echo wanderer
Donkey wrote:Echo Wanderer wrote:Donkey wrote:Slothrop wrote:Donkey wrote:Also the first person to record nyabinghi drumming on a record (the original Oh Carolina with Count Ossie's drummers).
That's got to be one of the most important single recording sessions in history. It really was where everything started...
On an unrelated thing, it's quite interesting how much the early ska stuff has in common with jump blues people like Louis Jordan. Apparently he was very big on the soundsystems before people got round to recording Jamaican acts, and it's quite weird hearing early ska that has as much in common with that sort of stuff as it does with later reggae...
Ska came out of R&B really...it was R&B that was played by all the Sound Systems, however to get the advantage of exclusives they started recording local jazz musicians etc and this evolved into ska..
Actually,Ska came out of Mento.But I take it you already knew that.
That's not true, it was an influence obviously, but the main inspiration was the american r&b of the day that was being played by the sound systems.
Actually it is true.It was basically Mento crossed with R&B and Jazz.Mento and Calypso were already well established Carribean styles LONG before R&B.Mento and Calypso were the foundations,then came the R&B and Jazz.And even THEN it was called Shuffle,which was the actual precursor to Ska.I see no mention of that in your rantings about R&B.
You really need to learn your facts and stop spouting your unfounded opinion that pretty much all 20th century music comes from R&B.I'm sorry,but even while I agree with you on some points on the R&B/Rock'N'Roll connection,you need to learn your history on Ska.I've spent years(and lots of money) listening to,studying,playing,and procuring Ska music(all three waves of it).I hate to break it to you,but you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
You,sir,are a prik for the sake of being a prik.You do it in almost every thread.And you obviously hate being schooled.If you want to talk R&B,chances are you may or may not school me(btw,my mother went out with Berry Gordy's nephew for 8 years,I have met the man personally,and I used to own some of Marvin Gaye's old suits as Anna Gaye[his widow] gave them to me personally,not to mention the fact that I have quite a few rare mint condition R&B albums of Motown,Stax,and Chess),then maybe start a thread about that.You obviously know your R&B,and I applaud you for that,so why not share your knowledge on that instead of trying to ruin a Ska thread with things you have no idea about.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:38 am
by echo wanderer
kidlogic wrote:
Dude. Thank you. I got a few dates wrong, but you have essentially said what I was trying to. Alsom, I was kinda lumping the 2.5 bands in with the 3rd wave simply because they were closer to that era. A lot of those bands are some of my favorites... but I agree. Ska is ska is ska is good happy music, no matter when or where it came from.
Fishbone, Op Ivy, Toasters, Skankin Pickle, Bosstones, Stubborn All Stars... sounds like my cd collection back in the day.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:06 am
by dr ddd
For all the hijacking and the debating - the awesome thing about this thread is it has made me realise that some of you lot have absolutely wicked taste and that makes me even happier
I'm not sure how or what my life would be if ska had never been a part of it...
