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the Dems really are no better when it comes to swallowing rhetoric with no real substance. Both platforms have speeches and rallies and a whole bunch of people who can shout slogans and catch phrases that don't actually mean anything.

Meanwhile, there are every day people who are Republicans and are very disillusioned with the war. Upset with their party. Want something to change. Not all Republicans are gun-toting Neo-Cons. There are lots of really moderate Republicans who believe in the tenets the party traditionally stand for.

There are Democrats who will vote Democrat merely because of it. Not that they particularly agree with everything--but they will vote with their party just the same as Republicans who vote along party line.

I could say this til I was blue in the face. There will be a Democrat who will yell "Change" and "Hope" at me and there will be a Republican who will yell "Families" and "Smaller government" at me and if I refuse to align with either or point out the holes in both arguments, then I've become the enemy.

And all this just makes it easier for Republicans to vote Republican. The Dems haven't had a very good track record of being approachable by the every day American. Usually tending to look like big city snobs, telling people they're idiots for not ascribing to their political beliefs without necessarily taking the time to understand why there are moderate Republicans at all. The more Dems treat people who value God and their families like a scourge on this country, the more room the Republicans have to come in and say they care. It might not be accurate. But, I'm sorry, if the Republicans do get re-elected, the Democrat snobs are equally at fault.

$0.02

Deams knows.

Its just nice to know the rpc will be over at the end of the week and i can actually go down town again without being arrested / caught up in the middle of a riot.

haha deams, i was thinking of that at first that but thought i might get it on the neck on some kind of religious intolerance flex

bellybelle wrote:the Dems really are no better when it comes to swallowing rhetoric with no real substance.

yeah of course. but given the choices this year... i just find it's an obvious vote.

there was a great article in rolling stone by a professor from princeton about how bush and his gang destroyed the republican party. a very interesting read.

my major feelings are that we need people to be taken care of (healthcare in this country is shot) and we need to help lower income families and distribute some of the wealth. i'm not a socialist.... but i do believe in some socialist concepts.

it's scary how cut off a lot of americans are from the "real" world. i swear that there are a ton of people out there that wouldn't think twice about having our gov't blow up the entire world and leave just the US alone on the planet.

starkey wrote:

bellybelle wrote:the Dems really are no better when it comes to swallowing rhetoric with no real substance.

yeah of course. but given the choices this year... i just find it's an obvious vote.

there was a great article in rolling stone by a professor from princeton about how bush and his gang destroyed the republican party. a very interesting read.

my major feelings are that we need people to be taken care of (healthcare in this country is shot) and we need to help lower income families and distribute some of the wealth. i'm not a socialist.... but i do believe in some socialist concepts.

it's scary how cut off a lot of americans are from the "real" world. i swear that there are a ton of people out there that wouldn't think twice about having our gov't blow up the entire world and leave just the US alone on the planet.

yeah yeah. I mean, I grew up in NYC which is traditionally a very Democrat-oriented state. And after 23 years and somewhat of an inflated sense of self from being from NYC (yeah admittedly snobbish--I was terrible), I moved to Augusta, GA--deep in the heart of Republican territory. Then I moved to Florida after that.

I remember thinking I couldn't figure out how these people could be snowed by such bs when everything made sense to me as a Dem. Then I started talking to people. Down here, being Republican isn't a dirty word. It just is an affiliation. In FL, though we're called a "red" state, its like 55-60% Republican and 40-45% Democrat. There were a whole bunch of scandals down here over the last 8 years over voting and yadda yadda. But in the middle of that were very decent, intelligent, focused Republicans.

I asked a few of them why they would align themselves with that party, since it never made sense to me. There reasons were pretty admirable, actually, and I could see why they did it. They cared about the success of their families. They had pride in their country. They felt strongly about their faith. Believed the government shouldn't be involved in too much of their affairs (traditionally Republicans are for smaller federal involvement and more state control). I could see these people weren't idiots. They had a different set of priorities than I did and that was all.

The major thing I hate about the elections is how much they polarize people when real life is nowhere near that serious. With the exception of the war, moderate Republicans seem to care about the same things that moderate Democrats care about: protecting their jobs, their families, and the right to exercise their beliefs, fairness and justice and freedom. The only real difference is the method they feel will achieve it best.

There are absolutely amazing and highly intelligent, respectable Republicans as much as there are the same of Dems. And there are horrible examples of Republicans same as there are horrible examples of Democrats (both sides have sex scandals, case in point). But in terms of national growth and bonding, we need to get to a point where generalization by title is less important than the facts of whats going on. There are Republicans who get this--who can see how they've been lied to and manipulated by a minority in their party. I wish the Dems had the same vantage point to take their party to task some more--but they seem to be lacking in this important kinda self-evaluation.

Has anyone ever seen the movie Idiocracy? The lack of substance, intentional jabs and her demeanor during the speech reminded me of the speeches President Camacho gives in the movie. On another note, the entire convention gave me the uneasy feeling that I was watching one of those broadcasted Christian mega church programs. The ones where a pastor is on stage screaming and bantering and thousands of people sit in the audience with the look of blind faith in their eyes.

Is this what Americans want in a vice president or president these days? It seems that it's becoming more popular to create hype and be a good speaker than it is to have any real knowledge about politics or know how on how to run a country.

You could see it in Palin's demeanor that she was prepped for that speech the same way someone would prep a boxer for the first round. Every sentence was strategically thought up to give her social cred and to make McCain look good. With little to no real substance on what we need as a country in a vice president.

The sad thing about this is that even though given the choice I would vote Obama, he's not far behind from this type of rhetoric.

Reptile wrote:
It seems that it's becoming more popular to create hype and be a good speaker than it is to have any real knowledge about politics or know how on how to run a country.

thats what i thought it was all about, as an onlooker..

Isn't this all just a by-product of voting for an individual rather than an idea or policies? Its exactly the same in this country and its ridiculous. People will vote for either the face, the charm, or just because their family has voted a certain way for a few generations.

Its all a con anyway. The collective population pays about 5% of their total wages. The rest comes from business and other interests. Obama can say whatever he wants but if the powers that be want to continue or start another war then he has very little choice really.

yeah i agree. i'm really hoping people are paying attention to the actual issues and not rhetoric. and i really hope that people aren't paying attention to superficial things like the package the frontman is in, and are instead choosing a party/president based on issues that are important to them.

I remember when Clinton was running back in the way back...and the amount of ladies I heard who would be voting for him because of how attractive he was...kinda like JFK. I would hope people are making more informed decisions. Elections are way too important to be taken that lightly.

I don't think that will ever change as long as the current system remains. You can't expect the majority in this day and age to act any differently if they are being presented with a personality. The only exception to this is when people are so sick of a party they vote for the other party just to get rid of them. This happened with us and Tony Blair.

Tomity wrote:I don't think that will ever change as long as the current system remains. You can't expect the majority in this day and age to act any differently if they are being presented with a personality. The only exception to this is when people are so sick of a party they vote for the other party just to get rid of them. This happened with us and Tony Blair.

I think most of us are hoping that too with what the NeoCons have done to the Republican party. I talk to so many Republicans who are just sick to death of being embarrassed by their party. I feel bad for them...because this administration has gone completely opposite of what they traditionally stand for. They are ashamed of their party and their previous decisions. I want them to feel comfortable to admit they had been kinda blindsided and free to correct their previous path...which is why I'm a lil sensitive to Republican criticism. There are so many who know and can see what happened and they want the opportunity to get back on track. So kicking them while they're down is not the way. Telling people they suck when a lot of them already feel that way only makes them defensive....and desperate decisions come from that; decisions with a potentially disastrous national/international impact on our short term and long term future..

bellybelle wrote:

Tomity wrote:I don't think that will ever change as long as the current system remains. You can't expect the majority in this day and age to act any differently if they are being presented with a personality. The only exception to this is when people are so sick of a party they vote for the other party just to get rid of them. This happened with us and Tony Blair.

I think most of us are hoping that too with what the NeoCons have done to the Republican party. I talk to so many Republicans who are just sick to death of being embarrassed by their party. I feel bad for them...because this administration has gone completely opposite of what they traditionally stand for. They are ashamed of their party and their previous decisions. I want them to feel comfortable to admit they had been kinda blindsided and free to correct their previous path...which is why I'm a lil sensitive to Republican criticism. There are so many who know and can see what happened and they want the opportunity to get back on track. So kicking them while they're down is not the way. Telling people they suck when a lot of them already feel that way only makes them defensive....and desperate decisions come from that; decisions with a potentially disastrous national/international impact on our short term and long term future..

I dont think there is any coming back from that now. A name is just a name. Labour are now for example, far more right wing than the Tories ever were. Maybe I just dont have a sence of perspective but it really did seem like there was some differences between the parties 30-40 years ago. Now they all occupy the middle ground and say almost the exact same thing. And even if they do say different things the outcome is always going to be the same because the same people are funding both sides.

Tomity wrote:A name is just a name. Labour are now for example, far more right wing than the Tories ever were.

I hate nu-lab as much as the next guy, but that just isn't true. At the moment they're all vying for the middle ground, but Thatcher was somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan.

My current plan is that if / when the tories get in at the next election I'm going to move to Scotland and wait for them to get independence, which shouldn't take long since they've got a heavy liberal / labour bias and the scottish constituencies have been the only thing keeping the tories out for the last couple of elections. The only risk is that you'd then be in an oil rich left wing democracy and would run the risk of being assasinated by the CIA in the name of "spreading freedom."

Amy Goodman from Democracy Now! and her production staff were arrested protesting the RNC, yep, some seriously fascist shit going down in St. Paul right now.

*calls Garrison Keiller and begs him to use his clout to fuck with the GOP in some way, ANY way*

gwa wrote:Its just nice to know the rpc will be over at the end of the week and i can actually go down town again without being arrested / caught up in the middle of a riot.

should have come down to Konkrete Jungle @ first ave last night.

when the rage against the machine show got out, there was a pretty big standoff with about 50+ swat team officers and a couple hundred "protesters"/observers. The police backed off, but then a march started and that's when I went back in for some dnb. Glad I didn't follow as it sounded like about 100 ppl got arrested (only 5-10 were actually detained/charged). Tried to find were they all ended up when I left, but they had the streets all blocked off were they were most likely detaining everyone.

was pretty memorable though. all those swat guys lined up around me no more then 15 ft away was pretty crazy.

might go to st paul tonight if im not playing down @ the loft.

tonight is supposed to be pretty intense.

we'll see though....

also, Palin is a loon. the other rumor that hasn't been mentioned is that her baby daughter is actually her daughter's (the same whose preggers now). On the day of the child's birth, Palin somehow manged to make a stop and do a speech in texas and then fly home, all the way to Alaska to give birth. All while being in labor for 13+ hours. Seems fishy....

Slothrop wrote:

Tomity wrote:A name is just a name. Labour are now for example, far more right wing than the Tories ever were.

I hate nu-lab as much as the next guy, but that just isn't true. At the moment they're all vying for the middle ground, but Thatcher was somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan.

The middle ground is a term they've come up with. It basically means all the parties are right wing. Maggie did an awful lot of damage but Labour haven't changed her policies, they've just continued them. We are in a situation now where the NHS is going private, the schools are being taken over by companies and most of the social care and councils aren't too far behind. On top of that poverty is rising and all of our fundamental rights have been taken away. In the 80's you could still have a protest, its not even legal now...

prisoner wrote:

gwa wrote:Its just nice to know the rpc will be over at the end of the week and i can actually go down town again without being arrested / caught up in the middle of a riot.

should have come down to Konkrete Jungle @ first ave last night.

when the rage against the machine show got out, there was a pretty big standoff with about 50+ swat team officers and a couple hundred "protesters"/observers. The police backed off, but then a march started and that's when I went back in for some dnb. Glad I didn't follow as it sounded like about 100 ppl got arrested (only 5-10 were actually detained/charged). Tried to find were they all ended up when I left, but they had the streets all blocked off were they were most likely detaining everyone.

was pretty memorable though. all those swat guys lined up around me no more then 15 ft away was pretty crazy.

might go to st paul tonight if im not playing down @ the loft.

tonight is supposed to be pretty intense.

we'll see though....

also, Palin is a loon. the other rumor that hasn't been mentioned is that her baby daughter is actually her daughter's (the same whose preggers now). On the day of the child's birth, Palin somehow manged to make a stop and do a speech in texas and then fly home, all the way to Alaska to give birth. All while being in labor for 13+ hours. Seems fishy....

mate did you go see pharcyde and mos def?? Police after that blocked up so many roads, getting onto 7th street was a PISS TAKE.

Is konkrete jungle 18+ ? Whens the next one i might mission it down if you fancy a skank out ha!

Oh yeah whats the crack with the loft?? And how come its tonight and not tomorrow?

I read this in the metro today.

Looks like this woman has her head screwed on and is like any normal family.