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pkay wrote:I'm more disillusioned by the laziness of the western world conservatives and liberals alike. Nothing will change as long as are 'have nots' are still far more well off than the rest of the world. Our lowest 1% is middle to upper class in most third world countries and as long as that is the situation the push for change will not exist. I fear it will take total economic collapse of the western world for westerners to adjust their priorities.

The reason crises present an opportunity for the left is governments and bosses are led to take extreme measures in order to recuperate profitability. People are sacked, wages are lowered, public spending is slashed - and everybody has a chance to see who are the people that benefit and those that lose out. The government has to keep trying to convince us that this pain we are given is really a medicine, that it's good for us. There is no guarantee that that this narrative will win. But of course there is no guarantee that they won't either, and there is also a space that opens up for reactionary politics (such as anti-immigrant populism)

pkay wrote:

borrowed wrote:

pkay wrote:

the acid never lies wrote:Sure, I don't disagree with that. I think you'll find it's liberals that tend to go for this utopian idea of convincing people to live differently through moral persuasion. It's what separates materialists from idealists. I just have a knee-jerk reaction when people call themselves 'realists' - no biggie though right?

agreed and the realist in me says that the reason the democratic party is such a failure right now is because we have unrealistic utopian ideas.

we talk a big game about shit that we know isn't feesable with the american people. If you want actual change you have to do something that will actually work, not something that looks good on paper

God damn, nothing pisses me off more than people online with no clue about politics try to sound like they know what they're talking about.

you mean like telling someone they're wrong and not explaining why? Nice one dickhead

Considering that you think
a. that the american people share a consciousness or behave under a shared mentality
and
b. that you alone understand this tend
I don't think a rational argument would be of any use here

borrowed wrote:
Considering that you think
a. that the american people share a consciousness or behave under a shared mentality
and
b. that you alone understand this tend
I don't think a rational argument would be of any use here

A) Americans are very predictable in behavior
B) I'm not the only one who understands this as there are trillions made worldwide every year based off of how predictable we are. The majority of the oil market and the worlds stock markets revolve around predicting how we act and react.

Americans much like most humans, are very predictable within their individual cultures.

^ That is very presumptuous - we can predict how people act in the confines of certain conditions as long as those conditions are perfectly reproduced... which they aren't, so technically we can't. Who predicted that all of the middle east would kick off???

If behaviour could be predicted so perfectly then there would be such a thing as a 'perfect' market model - and there would be no financial crises - at the very least no unforeseen ones.

borrowed wrote: a. the american people share a consciousness or behave under a shared mentality
b. you alone understand this tend

Oh you mean 'the national character'

the acid never lies wrote:^ That is very presumptuous - we can predict how people act in the confines of certain conditions as long as those conditions are perfectly reproduced... which they aren't. Who predicted that all of the middle east would kick off???

If behaviour could be predicted so perfectly then there would be such a thing as a 'perfect' market model - and there would be no financial crises - at the very least no unforeseen ones.

Yet the financial crises are predictable. We are able to identify bubbles very very early and people speculate against them and make billions off of other people losing billions.

Most crises aren't unforseen, they're ignored by greedy people (another very predictable action and why people by up insurances against them)

the acid never lies wrote:Who predicted that all of the middle east would kick off???

Pkay did. Apparently if you've been intently studying Lebanese newspapers for the past 15 years you would have known too.

nowaysj wrote:

the acid never lies wrote:Who predicted that all of the middle east would kick off???

Pkay did. Apparently if you've been intently studying Lebanese newspapers for the past 15 years you would have known too.

Whether it is down to 'greed' is irrelevant. Speculation fails, the market gets warped hence it is unpredictable. Whether it's the chicken or the egg doesn't really matter. The point is there are no perfect market models despite what economists (who are paid to be 100% right) want us to think.

In any case, it isn't simply because of greed that the economy crashes. The propensity towards crisis is built into capitalism no matter how good your maths is.

the acid never lies wrote:Whether it is down to 'greed' is irrelevant. Speculation fails, the market gets warped hence it is unpredictable. Whether it's the chicken or the egg doesn't really matter. The point is there are no perfect market models despite what economists (who are paid to be 100% right) want us to think.

In any case, it isn't simply because of greed that the economy crashes. The propensity towards crisis is built into capitalism no matter how good your maths is.

Nothing in this world is perfect but it doesn't have to be to make absurd amounts of cash (in the economic portion) or safely predict social actions by a group of people.

You fundamentally differ from how I view things. I wish the best for our country but have very little faith in it in its current state. No point in running around in circles about it. I think we both would love to see universal healthcare but have different views on if it's actually attainable in our country as is. Would love to be proven wrong on this one as the consequence would be a country willing to change.

good chats, off to watch ufc 127 :p

americans are for the most part morons, its a terrible country, trust me I live in Canada

Walt Thizzney wrote:americans are for the most part morons, its a terrible country, trust me I live in Canada

we don't pay you to talk canadian, we pay you to make maple syrup and bottled water. Get back to work

pkay wrote:

borrowed wrote:
Considering that you think
a. that the american people share a consciousness or behave under a shared mentality
and
b. that you alone understand this tend
I don't think a rational argument would be of any use here

A) Americans are very predictable in behavior
B) I'm not the only one who understands this as there are trillions made worldwide every year based off of how predictable we are. The majority of the oil market and the worlds stock markets revolve around predicting how we act and react.

Americans much like most humans, are very predictable within their individual cultures.

You're killin me. Just keep typing. Anything. Anything at all. Please. Its fucking gold.

the acid never lies wrote:^ That is very presumptuous - we can predict how people act in the confines of certain conditions as long as those conditions are perfectly reproduced... which they aren't, so technically we can't. Who predicted that all of the middle east would kick off???

If behaviour could be predicted so perfectly then there would be such a thing as a 'perfect' market model - and there would be no financial crises - at the very least no unforeseen ones.

borrowed wrote: a. the american people share a consciousness or behave under a shared mentality
b. you alone understand this tend

Oh you mean 'the national character'

Otherwise known as a cultural stereotype

borrowed wrote:
You're killin me. Just keep typing. Anything. Anything at all. Please. Its fucking gold.

the fact that you follow inspector dubplate on your soundcloud and sample crime mob in your tune is a pretty good cultural stereotype of someone from orlando eh?

do you know prolific?

if you want to chat politics or whatever lets share opinions. If you want to talk shit save for private messages. No sense in fucking up SNH with a bunch of hair pulling and cock fighting.

pkay wrote:

borrowed wrote:
You're killin me. Just keep typing. Anything. Anything at all. Please. Its fucking gold.

the fact that you follow inspector dubplate on your soundcloud and sample crime mob in your tune is a pretty good cultural stereotype of someone from orlando eh?

do you know prolific?

if you want to chat politics or whatever lets share opinions. If you want to talk shit save for private messages. No sense in fucking up SNH with a bunch of hair pulling and cock fighting.

Lol internet detective has found the inactive sound cloud link clevely hidden in my forum signature.

Go back to telling me how your shitty world view and stereotypes can be used to determine large scale economic policy, though.

pkay wrote:most americans don't have a healthcare problem. They have a budgeting problem.

Why on earth should anyone in the developed world have to BUDGET for their healthcare?

Healthcare should be free at the point of delivery. We're fucking human beings, not machines that can wait unused in a corner for treatment. If a person turns up at a hospital they should get treated... you shouldn't need to see ID or insurance details... it's fucking madness. Of course they're entitled to treatment... they're a fucking PERSON.

magma wrote: Why on earth should anyone in the developed world have to BUDGET for their healthcare?

Healthcare should be free at the point of delivery. We're fucking human beings, not machines that can wait unused in a corner for treatment. If a person turns up at a hospital they should get treated... you shouldn't need to see ID or insurance details... it's fucking madness. Of course they're entitled to treatment... they're a fucking PERSON.

this sentiment is bizarre and strange territory for americans, there's no point in arguing with them...

magma wrote:

pkay wrote:most americans don't have a healthcare problem. They have a budgeting problem.

Why on earth should anyone in the developed world have to BUDGET for their healthcare?

Healthcare should be free at the point of delivery. We're fucking human beings, not machines that can wait unused in a corner for treatment. If a person turns up at a hospital they should get treated... you shouldn't need to see ID or insurance details... it's fucking madness. Of course they're entitled to treatment... they're a fucking PERSON.

This.

Pkay you wanna get off your high horse mush. Or do you honestly think some people are better/above others?

people getting paid the same = communist
people getting the same healthcare = socialist
american system = capitalist

until people stop doing as i have done by giving something a label... nothing will change!

The best solution is a mix of the above.

Yet people are still stuck in the left / right debate.

I think a newer system will come along... a logicist, if you will.

We need to do what needs to be done based upon the most logical process,
Politiks is fucking our countries, it is now all about who is the most popular cat in the alley!

until religion has no part of the governing/political process, logic will be foreshadowed!

!!chea

Sirius wrote:I think a newer system will come along... a logicist, if you will.

We need to do what needs to be done based upon the most logical process,
Politiks is fucking our countries, it is now all about who is the most popular cat in the alley!
!!chea

Utilitarianism? Politics is also a waste of time anyway, in the UK it's 2 sides fighting each other (the Lib-Dems seem to have forgotten most of their values at the moment so we'll consider them M.I.A for now though Labour weren't far behind before since the wealth gap got wider under them ) about who gets to have the most benefit of power: most people or few people...

What's wrong with a planned economy? Even if only done partly to support everyone, then everyone can get the fuck on with doing something useful like investigating science instead of making money out of money