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bassinine wrote:if you think ableton's stock plugs are shit - you don't know what the fuck you're doing.

That's a bit harsh. I think that Fabfilter Pro-Q is a better EQ than the built in Ableton one - plus they admit it isn't that great. Which is why they're reworking the EQ in Live 9.

I'd say quite a few of the stock plugins aren't great - i much prefer Guitar Rig to the built in Ableton amp. Same goes for a lot of effects.

bassinine wrote:pretty much every single one of my tracks is ableton's stock plugs, with an extra filter and my access virus (sometimes massive for simple reeses).

Yeah, i don't think using a Virus counts as just using stock Ableton stuff. Especially as the Virus has it's own set of built in effects.

bassinine wrote:but really, operator can do anything, some sounds are just more work though.

It's a common myth that one synth can do any sound. It can't, it's just a limited piece of software with a finite amount of sounds it can create. Although it could take you a lifetime to find out all possible combinations.

The plugin manufacturers like to make out that their synths can make any sound, when in reality each synth has a different character and things it's good at.

bassinine wrote:one of the best things i ever did was get rid of like 200 vsts i never learned to use. because really, a great producer could use the stock plugs on any DAW and make a pro track.

Yeah you can definitely have too many plugins. I think it's important to have professional tools tho, if you want to be a pro. Sure a good producer could make a track with just stock plugins, but how many pro producers do you actually know of that work like this?

Thank you, virtual mark. May the force be with you.

VirtualMark wrote:

subfect wrote:Ableton's reverb is a convolution reverb.

Additive synthesis - Operator

Wavetable - we're short there

Operator is FM isn't it? According to the Ableton website it is anyhow. And are you seriously going to say that NI's Razor wouldn't expand your sonic palette?

And i'm sure the built in reverb is algorithmic.

FM synthesis IS additive You're adding information to the sound, known as frequency modulation, which another term - is additive synthesis.

Also, all convolution reverbs are algorithmic. That aside though, it appears (I had another read) that ableton's is not actually one. My bad Not sure where I got it that it is. hehe

VirtualMark wrote:
That's a bit harsh. I think that Fabfilter Pro-Q is a better EQ than the built in Ableton one - plus they admit it isn't that great. Which is why they're reworking the EQ in Live 9.

I'd say quite a few of the stock plugins aren't great - i much prefer Guitar Rig to the built in Ableton amp. Same goes for a lot of effects.

i never said there weren't better plug ins, that's not the point i was making at all. obviously waves eq will be measureably better than eq8. my point is that it really is never necessary to recreate a sound. the point is the BETTER stuff just makes what you're trying to do easier/faster. eq is a touchy subject though, and i wouldn't ever say use abletons over waves/proq/etc... just saying eq8 is more than enough for 99% of the producers in the world.

and on the issue of amp, that's not really a stock plug. it's a specialty distortion unit that just colors the sound a certain way - something that you can achieve with abletons stock distortion and some eq.

VirtualMark wrote:Yeah, i don't think using a Virus counts as just using stock Ableton stuff. Especially as the Virus has it's own set of built in effects.


It's a common myth that one synth can do any sound. It can't, it's just a limited piece of software with a finite amount of sounds it can create. Although it could take you a lifetime to find out all possible combinations.

The plugin manufacturers like to make out that their synths can make any sound, when in reality each synth has a different character and things it's good at.

that's why i pointed it out as an exception. again, i'm not saying you shouldn't use another synth if one is available - operator is tough to grasp at first, but again, not necessary. because really, you can take a raw saw wave from operator and turn it into anything else just using stock plugs if you're creative. so don't tell me you NEED another synth.

VirtualMark wrote: Yeah you can definitely have too many plugins. I think it's important to have professional tools tho, if you want to be a pro. Sure a good producer could make a track with just stock plugins, but how many pro producers do you actually know of that work like this?

agreed mang. just pointing out, it's not necessary to buy anything else to make pro tracks if you learn your shit. but like i pointed out - can never argue with a good synth, eq, and filter (would never make a track without my wow filter) in addition to the stock stuff. not trying to talk shit to anyone who disagrees, just trying to point out to the people that can't afford the really nice shit that they really can make tracks just as good with the stock stuff.

i was a bit harsh though

subfect wrote:FM synthesis IS additive You're adding information to the sound, known as frequency modulation, which another term - is additive synthesis.

No. Additive synthesis is not the same as FM synthesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_synthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_ ... _synthesis

This is synthesis 101, i can't believe that you don't know the difference.

subfect wrote:Also, all convolution reverbs are algorithmic.

No. A convolution reverb uses a recorded impulse response. An algorithmic one generates its own reverb, based upon parameters you choose. Again, this is extremely basic stuff.

http://brian-doyle.com/2011/10/28/convo ... c-reverbs/

No offense, but if you're going to argue a point, at least have the foresight to do a tiny bit of research on the subject. The main reason i comment here is for the people reading who actually want to learn. Posting inaccurate crap just bloats the threads and makes it much harder to get information.

bassinine wrote:agreed mang. just pointing out, it's not necessary to buy anything else to make pro tracks if you learn your shit. but like i pointed out - can never argue with a good synth, eq, and filter (would never make a track without my wow filter) in addition to the stock stuff. not trying to talk shit to anyone who disagrees, just trying to point out to the people that can't afford the really nice shit that they really can make tracks just as good with the stock stuff.

Yeah fair comments. And there's certainly an argument for someone to learn their DAW plugins before buying third party ones - if you can make good tunes with stock plugins, you can make good tunes with anything.

^ that's part if the reason why I never bought any rack extensions for reason.. After years of not using 3rd party I figured out how to do everything I needed

VirtualMark wrote:

subfect wrote:FM synthesis IS additive You're adding information to the sound, known as frequency modulation, which another term - is additive synthesis.

No. Additive synthesis is not the same as FM synthesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_synthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_ ... _synthesis

This is synthesis 101, i can't believe that you don't know the difference.

subfect wrote:Also, all convolution reverbs are algorithmic.

No. A convolution reverb uses a recorded impulse response. An algorithmic one generates its own reverb, based upon parameters you choose. Again, this is extremely basic stuff.

http://brian-doyle.com/2011/10/28/convo ... c-reverbs/

No offense, but if you're going to argue a point, at least have the foresight to do a tiny bit of research on the subject. The main reason i comment here is for the people reading who actually want to learn. Posting inaccurate crap just bloats the threads and makes it much harder to get information.

Mate I've just gotten confused, no need to be an ass. I've read before that FM synthesis is a form of additive, and I read just before that convolution reverbs use algorithms based on samples, so I'm not exactly wrong on the latter.

That was really informative.

FM synthesis is additive by nature but it isn't additive synthesis, it's FM synthesis. Additive synthesis is a completely different type of synthesis, though both involve additive processing to call them both additive would simply cause confusion, so we call FM synthesis FM because the core of what you're doing is modulating frequency; and we call additive synthesis additive because you're stacking (adding/combining) sine waves at various harmonics to create timbre, it's called additive because the core process is addition, like in FM synthesis the core process is frequency modulation. Both 'are' additive in a critical sense, but only one is called additive so you're both right.

I agree completely with this and not often use plugins outside of stock plugins unless I really want to use that specific plugin for a specific sound.. but I've built many tracks with nothing else than stock plugins, no need for others if you know how to use your tools properly! Seen a few bits of advice about this around lately.

Also like to say that I've seen Rappone speak about things and I think.. what the hell are you on about?


edit: theres a good topic around here somewhere about making a basic beat with just a sine wave sample and a sampler, complete with perc and melody.. top notch!

Turnipish Thoughts wrote:FM synthesis is additive by nature but it isn't additive synthesis, it's FM synthesis. Additive synthesis is a completely different type of synthesis, though both involve additive processing to call them both additive would simply cause confusion, so we call FM synthesis FM because the core of what you're doing is modulating frequency; and we call additive synthesis additive because you're stacking (adding/combining) sine waves at various harmonics to create timbre, it's called additive because the core process is addition, like in FM synthesis the core process is frequency modulation. Both 'are' additive in a critical sense, but only one is called additive so you're both right.

I think you're confused - since when was frequency modulation called "additive processing". Most FM synths actually use phase modulation, it's really got nothing to do with how an additive synth works. I could use your rationale and say that a Moog Phatty is a digital synth as it has a digital display, but it would be incorrect.

Check NI Razor for a good example of additive synthesis, and FM8 for an example of FM synthesis.

TBH i've never heard of the term "additive processing" on any synth.

SKIN E wrote:
Also like to say that I've seen Rappone speak about things and I think.. what the hell are you on about?

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I was just sayin I don't like ableton stock presets (apart from operator) and I find myself working better with certain plugins and saving alot of time. Never said its impossible to make good music out of them though.
LOVE TO RIDE THE NEWB, this forum. hahaha.

what are you on about?

Rappone, I still got the Preparation H coupon if you need it

outdropt wrote:Rappone, I still got the Preparation H coupon if you need it

im gonna need more than that. all of ur heads up my ass gave me some nasty lacerations.




Hahahaha I crack meself up sometimes

Tune Battle!

TUEN BATTL

jrisreal vs. jrisreal

Rappone wrote: S




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I was just sayin I don't like ableton stock presets (apart from operator) and I find myself working better with certain plugins and saving alot of time. Never said its impossible to make good music out of them though.
LOVE TO RIDE THE NEWB, this forum. hahaha.

You were just talking crap that's all.

Let's tunebattle, seems thats the way DSF sorts its noobs out.

VirtualMark is Slater