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Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:37 am
by laurend
skimpi wrote:bring everything down so that the peak is around -3db, i mean if the peak hits -2.5db thts still alright. but the volume will be moving all over the place as you said it is, thats alright, but you dont want it to EVER go over the -3db if you get what i mean? so you dont want it so that the volume is constantly at -3db, you want it so that the upmost, loudest points of your track hit at around -3db.
Sorry, I'm not a natvive english speaker. Maybe that's why I don't understand what you mean.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:04 pm
by skimpi
laurend wrote:skimpi wrote:bring everything down so that the peak is around -3db, i mean if the peak hits -2.5db thts still alright. but the volume will be moving all over the place as you said it is, thats alright, but you dont want it to EVER go over the -3db if you get what i mean? so you dont want it so that the volume is constantly at -3db, you want it so that the upmost, loudest points of your track hit at around -3db.
Sorry, I'm not a natvive english speaker. Maybe that's why I don't understand what you mean.
errr, you want to have your master fader left at 0. then you want to move the faders of every channel down, so that primarily, the master faders level meter doesnt ever go red. but ideally you want the level meter on the master channel to never go above -3db at any point in the track. hopefully that sounds more clear.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:21 pm
by laurend
The master fader can be at any place on the dB scale until the peak meter doesn't display overs (ideally -3 dB fs). Turning down the level for induvidual tracks or using the master fader have exactly the same results assuming there isn't any dynamics processor inserted on the master section.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:58 pm
by elyhess
skimpi wrote:elyhess wrote:sorry for being so stupid lol, i figured it out, but like is there a specific way i should bring it down? or just adjust the volume fader until its hitting -3db? or is there a plugin that i can just set to -3db or whatever? cus im trying to adjust the volume fader and i cant get it to sit at -3 db its all over the place. maybe im just stupid lol
bring everything down so that the peak is around -3db, i mean if the peak hits -2.5db thts still alright. but the volume will be moving all over the place as you said it is, thats alright, but you dont want it to EVER go over the -3db if you get what i mean? so you dont want it so that the volume is constantly at -3db, you want it so that the upmost, loudest points of your track hit at around -3db.
thank you very much!
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:27 am
by macc
The real idea is that you don't move any channel faders because your sounds are already at the right level on the sample/synth/whatever level.
Ideally all the channel faders as well as the master fader sit at 0, because the sounds you're mixing are at the right level. So you don't need to change anything.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:30 am
by elyhess
elyhess wrote:skimpi wrote:elyhess wrote:sorry for being so stupid lol, i figured it out, but like is there a specific way i should bring it down? or just adjust the volume fader until its hitting -3db? or is there a plugin that i can just set to -3db or whatever? cus im trying to adjust the volume fader and i cant get it to sit at -3 db its all over the place. maybe im just stupid lol
bring everything down so that the peak is around -3db, i mean if the peak hits -2.5db thts still alright. but the volume will be moving all over the place as you said it is, thats alright, but you dont want it to EVER go over the -3db if you get what i mean? so you dont want it so that the volume is constantly at -3db, you want it so that the upmost, loudest points of your track hit at around -3db.
Ok im having issues.. its fucking impossible to get it to go to -3 or even close! im so confused here on how this works.. so im trying to bring each channel down so that its at -3 db... so basically im bringing the fader all the way down so that its not even playing, then i slowly bring it up, -50,-40,-30,-20,-10 but right after negative 10 it goes to positive 9
im honestly so confused and frustrated
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:09 am
by laurend
Keep your mix as it is and bring the master fader to -10 dB. I think you should also turn up your monitoring level to keep things under a tight control.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:42 pm
by elyhess
I took a screeny so maybe that can help with my question
heres the screenshot:
http://s425.photobucket.com/albums/pp33 ... 3409AM.png
now my question is.. when setting the peak down to -3db should i be looking at the tiny box above the bars that move? for example, the second box reads 1.2 do i want this to read -3?
OR
should i be looking to the far left? where it says
-DB
1
3
6
9
should i be trying to get all the values lined up with that 3? sorry if this is unclear. i feel really stupid lol
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:24 pm
by laurend
What you have to understand, is that track faders are different from the master fader. Track faders control the gain of the signal coming from your hard drive. The master fader controls the signal going to your A/D converter for monitoring and to file rendering (render, mix, bounce...).
All the faders are some controls of the audio engine. But track faders deal with the audio engine that is impossible to overload because it's a floating point arithmetic.
The master fader sends data to audio converters which use a fix point arithmetic. So overload (clipping) is possible. Tha same is true when you mix in 16 or 24 bits files.
Only the 32 bits float format prevent any clipping during export, but it will occure in the monitoring system.
So, to be clear and simple, you can do what you want with your track faders even if you see red pixels and positive dB values.
But red pixels and positive dB values are forbidden on the master section, because clipping and overloads become real here.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:43 pm
by eldoogle
I've heard from two sources that any sort of clipping, either in the insert chain or the tracks will mess with sound in a bad way. Less shiny sounding.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:45 pm
by elyhess
laurend wrote:What you have to understand, is that track faders are different from the master fader. Track faders control the gain of the signal comming from your hard drive. The master fader controls the signal going to your A/D converter for monitoring and to file rendering (render, mix, bounce...).
All the faders are some controls of the audio engine. But track faders deal with the audio engine that is impossible to overload because it's a floating point arithmetic.
The master fader sends data to audio converters which use a fix point arithmetic. So overload (clipping) is possible. Tha same is true when you mix in 13 or 24 bits files.
Only the 32 bits float format prevent any clipping during export, but it will occure in the monitoring system.
So, to be clear and simple, you can do what you want with your track faders even if you see red pixels and positive dB values.
But red pixels and positive dB values are forbidden on the master section, because clipping and overloads become real here.
Exactly what i needed sir! thank you much!
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:48 pm
by elyhess
elyhess wrote:laurend wrote:What you have to understand, is that track faders are different from the master fader. Track faders control the gain of the signal comming from your hard drive. The master fader controls the signal going to your A/D converter for monitoring and to file rendering (render, mix, bounce...).
All the faders are some controls of the audio engine. But track faders deal with the audio engine that is impossible to overload because it's a floating point arithmetic.
The master fader sends data to audio converters which use a fix point arithmetic. So overload (clipping) is possible. Tha same is true when you mix in 13 or 24 bits files.
Only the 32 bits float format prevent any clipping during export, but it will occure in the monitoring system.
So, to be clear and simple, you can do what you want with your track faders even if you see red pixels and positive dB values.
But red pixels and positive dB values are forbidden on the master section, because clipping and overloads become real here.
you say that the master track cant be positive db values? cus its fucking jumping all over the place even if i bring down the fader to -20, it will be at like -10 db and then jump to like positive 8
at this point im so frustrated, im debating if i should just scrap this shit project and restart and prevent any clipping in the first place. idk.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:02 pm
by eldoogle
Just use compression or a limiter, if that's the problem you're having (spikes in sound).
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:04 pm
by elyhess
eldoogle wrote:Just use compression or a limiter, if that's the problem you're having (spikes in sound).
should i put that on the master track? or on certain sounds that are making it jump like that?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:10 pm
by eldoogle
Have you read all this thread? Anyways, if your sound has a large range from quiet to loud, compression can bring the gap together so that the overall sound is louder (compressed). A limiter catches audio that goes beyond a certain point and won't let it come through at all. Limiters aren't so good on individual tracks to push down the signal too much.
So read about compression, this thread. Put the compressor on the track that has a big range from quiet to loud.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:16 pm
by symmetricalsounds
laurend wrote:
So, to be clear and simple, you can do what you want with your track faders even if you see red pixels and positive dB values.
because not all plugins handle data at floating point it means you can't overload your tracks either because whilst the DAW itself might not have any problems with it individual plugins might, therefore good gain-staging all the way along the chain is recommended.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:16 pm
by laurend
If you plan to have some mastering after mixing, just keep your master section clean. Don't use any dynamics processor such as compressor or limiter which is even worse.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:21 pm
by elyhess
ive read most of this thread, and im still confused :/ why does my peak db go from -10 to 9? it just skips -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 and so forth and just go straight to positive 8? what ive been told is i want to get to -3 db, and its what ive been trying to do for about 2 days now and i cant, it just doesnt go there.
how do i know what to compress? like yeah i could compress a sound thats to loud and making the master track jump up, but cant i just turn down the fader on that mixer too?
or should i just fuck it all and bring the master track fader down to -20 so its nowhere near red, even tho its still going from -9 to fucking 8, even tho i dont see how thats possible. and then just throw a limiter on the whole damn thing and limit it to -3db?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:29 pm
by laurend
If the peakmeter jumps to + 9 dB on your master section, you must lower the master fader from 9 dB at least. Maybe, the sound won't be loud enough for mixing? Just turn up your monitoring volume. It's that simple.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:32 pm
by eldoogle
When your sound jumps to 9 db over, do more sounds come in? And are you pulling down the individual track volumes down?
