Hooks are pretty much my major block when it's come to the songs I've written so far. I understand that there is no set formula as to how you come up with your hook, and that the hook can be anything from a synthd melody, to a sample, to a section of drums that stands out from the beat or whatever really.
I'm trying to go for the sub heavy, darker, atmos-y type sound as it is what I enjoy listening to, and hopefully that is represented in the few tracks I've done (soundcloud link in sig, crit much appreciated -wink--wink- ) and so my question is, what process do people go through to come up with their hooks, especially in the subset that I like? It seems like too pure an output to be the result of messing around with filter cutoffs etc. that lead to a dsitincitve bass sound.
Hope that makes sense! If people want to answer like they have been to the sweet song writing thread thats in action atm that would be amazing
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:39 pm
by tripwire22
going by my standards and what I think is the kryptic mind standard. Go for amazing drum lines that evolve through the track
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:42 pm
by kaiori breathe
SesG wrote:I'm trying to go for the sub heavy, darker, atmos-y type sound as it is what I enjoy listening to
I would recommend writing in the harmonic minor - if you aren't already. The melodic and natural minors just won't pack enough punch to cut it in a really dark track. Where as the harmonic minor has lots of sharp and acute turns that lend themselves well to this kind of writing.
KN-T-S-T-T-S-1&1/2-KN
(KN standing for 'key note', i.e., your root note, T standing for 'tone, S standing for 'semi tone', and the 1&1/2 representing a Tone and a semitone, i.e., a movement of 3 semitones.)
So in A the harmonic minor scale will go as follows:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A
You can write a lot of very dark bass lines if you use this scale.
As well as that this scale lends to some very dark chords which will work nicely in your atmospheres.
KN-S-T-T-T-S-T-KN
(KN again standing for 'Key note',i.e., your root note, S standing for 'semi-tone' and T standing for 'tone'.)
For example in E the scale would go, EFGABCDE
It probably won't have the same degree of strength as the harmonic minor does though. The last 4 notes of the harmonic minor, with regards to how their arranged, give it a lot of strength to sound quite dark.
The last 4 notes in the harmonic minor are your best friends really with regards to writing something dark. They can work especially well in those really desolate sounding pads you hear. Just That G# slowly rising to an A can have great effect.
If this advice isn't helping then I would recommend having a look at chromaticism and how it works in a musical context.
SesG wrote: what process do people go through to come up with their hooks, especially in the subset that I like? It seems like too pure an output to be the result of messing around with filter cutoffs etc. that lead to a dsitincitve bass sound.
My hooks are usually a piano melody line or some sort being repeated over new chords to give it a different texture each time -caused by it's being carried by new harmonic content. Alternatively it will be a melody line within piano that is completely intertwined with the chords, in which case i'll give it a different texture by varying the bass line under it. Or some kind of pad swell, or both. As well as that I usually have second piano melody lines flying in out of nowhere, like an arpeggio run at the end of each 4 bar phrase, or a scalic run. Plus string parts that add their own harmonic content to the chords that are already present.
So for me it's hard to define which part is actually my hook because I tend to view the hook as a whole musical process involving all the instrumentation I have working together and feeding off of each other like a big melodic eco system.
EDIT: With regards to production and stuff, I think that's the least important part of making a dark track. You need to lay the musical foundations first and if they aren't up to scratch then it won't matter what you do.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:00 pm
by SesG
What a fantastic reply Will definetly be trying that out soon as I have generally stuck to just writing in E or D Minor as they are quite simple and comfortable to me, but would defo be a good idea to branch out
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:42 pm
by antics
THAT RIGHT THERE WAS A SIIICK POST
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:49 pm
by eops
kaiori breathe wrote:
SesG wrote:I'm trying to go for the sub heavy, darker, atmos-y type sound as it is what I enjoy listening to
I would recommend writing in the harmonic minor - if you aren't already. The melodic and natural minors just won't pack enough punch to cut it in a really dark track. Where as the harmonic minor has lots of sharp and acute turns that lend themselves well to this kind of writing.
KN-T-S-T-T-S-1&1/2-KN
(KN standing for 'key note', i.e., your root note, T standing for 'tone, S standing for 'semi tone', and the 1&1/2 representing a Tone and a semitone, i.e., a movement of 3 semitones.)
So in A the harmonic minor scale will go as follows:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A
You can write a lot of very dark bass lines if you use this scale.
As well as that this scale lends to some very dark chords which will work nicely in your atmospheres.
KN-S-T-T-T-S-T-KN
(KN again standing for 'Key note',i.e., your root note, S standing for 'semi-tone' and T standing for 'tone'.)
For example in E the scale would go, EFGABCDE
It probably won't have the same degree of strength as the harmonic minor does though. The last 4 notes of the harmonic minor, with regards to how their arranged, give it a lot of strength to sound quite dark.
The last 4 notes in the harmonic minor are your best friends really with regards to writing something dark. They can work especially well in those really desolate sounding pads you hear. Just That G# slowly rising to an A can have great effect.
If this advice isn't helping then I would recommend having a look at chromaticism and how it works in a musical context.
SesG wrote: what process do people go through to come up with their hooks, especially in the subset that I like? It seems like too pure an output to be the result of messing around with filter cutoffs etc. that lead to a dsitincitve bass sound.
My hooks are usually a piano melody line or some sort being repeated over new chords to give it a different texture each time -caused by it's being carried by new harmonic content. Alternatively it will be a melody line within piano that is completely intertwined with the chords, in which case i'll give it a different texture by varying the bass line under it. Or some kind of pad swell, or both. As well as that I usually have second piano melody lines flying in out of nowhere, like an arpeggio run at the end of each 4 bar phrase, or a scalic run. Plus string parts that add their own harmonic content to the chords that are already present.
So for me it's hard to define which part is actually my hook because I tend to view the hook as a whole musical process involving all the instrumentation I have working together and feeding off of each other like a big melodic eco system.
EDIT: With regards to production and stuff, I think that's the least important part of making a dark track. You need to lay the musical foundations first and if they aren't up to scratch then it won't matter what you do.
Thats the second post you have made today that basically killed it
Hats off - Im gonna get me some hamonic minor action tonight!
(does 'harmonic minor action' make it sound like Im gonna have sex with a welsh male voice choir?)
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:54 pm
by JFK
eops wrote:
Hats off - Im gonna get me some hamonic minor action tonight!
(does 'harmonic minor action' make it sound like Im gonna have sex with a welsh male voice choir?)
FFS. I had a mouthful of hobnob when I read that. Now I am cleaning hobnob off my screen.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:14 pm
by LordBid
kaiori breathe wrote:
SesG wrote:I'm trying to go for the sub heavy, darker, atmos-y type sound as it is what I enjoy listening to
I would recommend writing in the harmonic minor - if you aren't already. The melodic and natural minors just won't pack enough punch to cut it in a really dark track. Where as the harmonic minor has lots of sharp and acute turns that lend themselves well to this kind of writing.
KN-T-S-T-T-S-1&1/2-KN
(KN standing for 'key note', i.e., your root note, T standing for 'tone, S standing for 'semi tone', and the 1&1/2 representing a Tone and a semitone, i.e., a movement of 3 semitones.)
So in A the harmonic minor scale will go as follows:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A
You can write a lot of very dark bass lines if you use this scale.
As well as that this scale lends to some very dark chords which will work nicely in your atmospheres.
KN-S-T-T-T-S-T-KN
(KN again standing for 'Key note',i.e., your root note, S standing for 'semi-tone' and T standing for 'tone'.)
For example in E the scale would go, EFGABCDE
It probably won't have the same degree of strength as the harmonic minor does though. The last 4 notes of the harmonic minor, with regards to how their arranged, give it a lot of strength to sound quite dark.
The last 4 notes in the harmonic minor are your best friends really with regards to writing something dark. They can work especially well in those really desolate sounding pads you hear. Just That G# slowly rising to an A can have great effect.
If this advice isn't helping then I would recommend having a look at chromaticism and how it works in a musical context.
SesG wrote: what process do people go through to come up with their hooks, especially in the subset that I like? It seems like too pure an output to be the result of messing around with filter cutoffs etc. that lead to a dsitincitve bass sound.
My hooks are usually a piano melody line or some sort being repeated over new chords to give it a different texture each time -caused by it's being carried by new harmonic content. Alternatively it will be a melody line within piano that is completely intertwined with the chords, in which case i'll give it a different texture by varying the bass line under it. Or some kind of pad swell, or both. As well as that I usually have second piano melody lines flying in out of nowhere, like an arpeggio run at the end of each 4 bar phrase, or a scalic run. Plus string parts that add their own harmonic content to the chords that are already present.
So for me it's hard to define which part is actually my hook because I tend to view the hook as a whole musical process involving all the instrumentation I have working together and feeding off of each other like a big melodic eco system.
EDIT: With regards to production and stuff, I think that's the least important part of making a dark track. You need to lay the musical foundations first and if they aren't up to scratch then it won't matter what you do.
dude bigup on your msuical knowledge man, every post you write is as easy to understand as a kindergarten class! thank you for taking the time to write them!
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:02 pm
by kaiori breathe
LordBid wrote:
dude bigup on your msuical knowledge man, every post you write is as easy to understand as a kindergarten class! thank you for taking the time to write them!
Not a problem, I'm one of those freaks who actually really enjoys music theory the mechanics of how songs actually work. So writing these isn't a big imposition for me. I actually kind of like doing it.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:42 pm
by wirez
If you're looking for a hook for commercial viability your best bet is always going to be a vocal IMO because although music can get stuck in your head, music with words is even more likely to!
But this doesn't help with the fact that you have to write the notation for the singer to work with to begin with...
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:06 pm
by kaiori breathe
wirez wrote:If you're looking for a hook for commercial viability your best bet is always going to be a vocal IMO because although music can get stuck in your head, music with words is even more likely to!
But this doesn't help with the fact that you have to write the notation for the singer to work with to begin with...
wirez wrote:If you're looking for a hook for commercial viability your best bet is always going to be a vocal IMO because although music can get stuck in your head, music with words is even more likely to!
But this doesn't help with the fact that you have to write the notation for the singer to work with to begin with...
@OP, I listened to the tracks in your soundcloud, and I thought that they were actually very busy. I mean like in the top track, those chords are really prominent and the progression is quick and clear - I think maybe to go a bit darker you could make your sounds a little bit more understated.
In the bottom track that little bleep is cool - but it is there constantly and moving around a lot - you could try spacing stuff out a bit more...
Basically space is good - just try having a couple of gaping wholes in bars and see what happens.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:46 am
by nowaysj
When I'm working on something, throwing ideas around, most are just really bad for their normalcy. But sometimes, all the right elements come together, and I go to Ctrl +S, that is when the hook is born. Right there when I hear something I like and want to keep.
I'm leery of any guide to hooks, or what not. Of all the elements of music theory, I think this is the one thing that can't be taught in of itself.
This is from that link to melody. I'm working on a track right now with a 2 note bline, the notes are a semitone apart. This should be really boring, right? Well maybe it is. But this is some really down halftime dubstep, and it works well as a hook (imo, obviously).
In writing hooks, I think you need a very simple beat at your tempo, and then you need to start fooling around, and follow the music, rather than dictating what should be. This is dangerous, sometimes the music will take you to idiotic places, but you have to be willing to go there, or you will never get to the idiotic place that is a hook. A hook is really a dumb thing, some little chunk of sound that fits perfectly into people's brains. Like a virus is dumb, just a chunk of dna with a shell.
And riffing on this talk of hooks, someone sang that Susan Vega hook from Tom's Diner, and in a panic I told him to shut up, that hook can just fuck me up for like a week... but the hook didn't work on me anymore, like it burned that part of my brain out or something. Wtf is up with that?
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:58 am
by tripaddict
tune i like the garage remix
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:48 pm
by kaiori breathe
nowaysj wrote: I think this is the one thing that can't be taught in of itself.
I disagree. All aspects of music follow a formula, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. You just need to find it.
nowaysj wrote:
This is from that link to melody. I'm working on a track right now with a 2 note bline, the notes are a semitone apart. This should be really boring, right? Well maybe it is. But this is some really down halftime dubstep, and it works well as a hook (imo, obviously).
Those links were really meant as a general guide, you're not meant to treat them as gospel, you can break and bend the rules sometimes.
I'd have to hear your track to be able to tell you why it works. There is a reason why it works. I just can't tell you what it is without hearing the song. Best guess is that you're playing the first note in bar one then the second note on bar two, or at the very least on beat one and the second note on beat 3. Which would still create a sense of direction. If that's not the case then I can't really tell you why it sounds good without hearing it.
But all music works for a reason, music doesn't just magically sound good. If something sounds good there is a reason for it and it can be replicated if the reason is found.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:58 pm
by waffler22
My theory on music in general but ESPECIALLY hooks is that you have to tap beyond the thinking about writing a line and more turn your thinking brain off, listen to the chords you've got and sort of let yourself hum/whistle/sing whatever naturally flows out. If you're having a little trouble with it, smoke some weed and it'll be alot easier. As someone said earlier a hook is one of the few things in music that you can't really teach, it's just not really formulaic like that. The hook is the part of the song that sucks us in, the part that just sort of happens you know?
You gotta approach it at that subconscious level.
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:11 pm
by madmeesh
kaiori breathe wrote:
nowaysj wrote: I think this is the one thing that can't be taught in of itself.
I disagree. All aspects of music follow a formula, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. You just need to find it.
nowaysj wrote:
This is from that link to melody. I'm working on a track right now with a 2 note bline, the notes are a semitone apart. This should be really boring, right? Well maybe it is. But this is some really down halftime dubstep, and it works well as a hook (imo, obviously).
Those links were really meant as a general guide, you're not meant to treat them as gospel, you can break and bend the rules sometimes.
I'd have to hear your track to be able to tell you why it works. There is a reason why it works. I just can't tell you what it is without hearing the song. Best guess is that you're playing the first note in bar one then the second note on bar two, or at the very least on beat one and the second note on beat 3. Which would still create a sense of direction. If that's not the case then I can't really tell you why it sounds good without hearing it.
But all music works for a reason, music doesn't just magically sound good. If something sounds good there is a reason for it and it can be replicated if the reason is found.
Uggh!!! All aspects of music follow a formula!?? No way man! I don't know what music you listen to, but I like barrier-breaking stuff. If you subscribe so much to all this rigid theory, your stuff is just going to sound like pop music. Theory is IMPORTANT. But you have to learn the rules to know how to break them properly.
Dubstep is a forward thinking, and fairly minimal genre. We are now, just in the past year, starting to see waves of melodic sort of uplifting trance stuff with a snare on the 3 @ 140. And many people on this site, myself included, are not impressed. To my ears, it just doesn't work, and it is a decline from the strength of earlier dubstep.
All of the things you have posted are very valuable, and I respect the detail you put in, but it's not 100% appropriate to this genre. Maybe trance, maybe classical piano or guitar... but dubstep!!! If you listen to any big tunes from 06-08, you'll see that many of these songs are barely worthy of consideration from a music theory point of view. (I'm talking melody here, not rhythm) Like Benga + Coki - Night!? How much simpler can you get?
I'm not saying to forget the theory, but isn't it better to just internalize all of these things such that they come naturally, rather than consulting charts when you want to make a catchy or emotional hook?
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:45 pm
by antics
madmeesh wrote:
I'm not saying to forget the theory, but isn't it better to just internalize all of these things such that they come naturally, rather than consulting charts when you want to make a catchy or emotional hook?
The hook in night definately goes descends in the way he suggested...
Re: Writing Hooks
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:25 pm
by madmeesh
antics wrote:
madmeesh wrote:
I'm not saying to forget the theory, but isn't it better to just internalize all of these things such that they come naturally, rather than consulting charts when you want to make a catchy or emotional hook?
The hook in night definately goes descends in the way he suggested...
Hey - fair enough.
I'm just saying that good music cannot be reduced to theory, just like biology cannot be reduced to physics. There's a magic there. Even songs that formally are very simple like Night can be very interesting on other levels. And often times in dance music, the simpler the better!
) and so my question is, what process do people go through to come up with their hooks, especially in the subset that I like? It seems like too pure an output to be the result of messing around with filter cutoffs etc. that lead to a dsitincitve bass sound.
I had a mouthful of hobnob when I read that. Now I am cleaning hobnob off my screen. 