Dubstepforum.com

i can mix pretty well using ableton live but i've heard people talk shit about laptop dj's before ...

can you give me some arguments pro/contra laptop dj'ing using ableton?

i'll start off:
pro: you can be a lot more creative in your mixes. what i really care about is the result, not how you accomplish it. from that perspective, the audience can get a more varied and creative set from a laptop DJ than a regular DJ (not in all cases of course, but yeh, in general)


i'd really like to hear your opinion on this ... cheers

Con: The beatmatching is so easy and fast that you lose the tension of doing two or three things at once. IMHO, this really carries through to the audience. I can often feel it when someone's playing Ableton - not because of the sound, or because of the perfect beatmatching, or whatever - but because it feels like there's no pressure or energy in the way the DJ is working the mixer.

in other words: it's no fun.

static_cast wrote:Con: The beatmatching is so easy and fast that you lose the tension of doing two or three things at once. IMHO, this really carries through to the audience. I can often feel it when someone's playing Ableton - not because of the sound, or because of the perfect beatmatching, or whatever - but because it feels like there's no pressure or energy in the way the DJ is working the mixer.

you don't believe you can boost your creativity level in such a way that it can bring back some pressure?
i'm thinking: live mash-ups & remixing ?

Play however you want mate, it's your decision!

A lot of big guys use Ableton.

It's inevitable that you'll meet haters on the way and etc.

It's been discussed really, some pages back.

My opinion is that if you use Ableton, you must really pick your tunes! Pick them real good, mix in an interesting way, drop acapellas, play 3 tracks, 4 tracks at the same time, go wild with effects. And this is not because the crowd won't like it, it's because in the end, you'll get bored by regular A>B mixing in Ableton, because it's way too easy!

I've read this story on ALDJ, that some guy used to play at this club. One day the manager came and told him that he can't use Ableton anymore. What happened was that the guest DJ (who was playing on CDJs) told the manager that he (the DJ) couldn't play on CDJs as good as the Ableton Live one could.



Jason

Disco Nutter wrote:Play however you want mate, it's your decision!

A lot of big guys use Ableton.

It's inevitable that you'll meet haters on the way and etc.

It's been discussed really, some pages back.

My opinion is that if you use Ableton, you must really pick your tunes! Pick them real good, mix in an interesting way, drop acapellas, play 3 tracks, 4 tracks at the same time, go wild with effects. And this is not because the crowd won't like it, it's because in the end, you'll get bored by regular A>B mixing in Ableton, because it's way too easy!

I've read this story on ALDJ, that some guy used to play at this club. And one day the manager came and told him that he can't use Ableton anymore, because the guest DJ (who was playing on CDJs) told the manager that he couldn't play on them as good as the Ableton Live one could.

I hope you understand my laste sentence!

Jason

alright ...
basically, when i'm in the audience, i'd like to listen to a good dj-set, no matter what equipment the dj uses.

i mean, i went to borgore & tomba the other night. borgore's set was ok, but tomba's was just pure shite ... he was using serato + a regular vinyl pickup ...
i'd rather have he'd go digital all the way and listen to some quality mixing instead of him trying to mix vinyl and failing miserably.

I am all for using technology to it's fullest yet I just can't get into peoples Ableton / Traktor sets. Probably because most of these dj's suck at track selection and phrasing and stuff like that, it gives the ones that are good at it a bad name I think. Like someone else was trying explain I think the spot on beatmatching lends to a real sterile feel. I don't like sloppy matching either but even when the records drift just a tad it adds something imo. Never really realized this until these dj programs came out well the cdj's are pretty sterile too imo. I just think if you are using ableton live then you should fucking USE ableton LIVE. So much you can do with it I don't know why you would choose to just mix one song into another. Use some creativity and go beyond djing. imoimoimo

halcyon wrote:

Disco Nutter wrote:Play however you want mate, it's your decision!

A lot of big guys use Ableton.

It's inevitable that you'll meet haters on the way and etc.

It's been discussed really, some pages back.

My opinion is that if you use Ableton, you must really pick your tunes! Pick them real good, mix in an interesting way, drop acapellas, play 3 tracks, 4 tracks at the same time, go wild with effects. And this is not because the crowd won't like it, it's because in the end, you'll get bored by regular A>B mixing in Ableton, because it's way too easy!

I've read this story on ALDJ, that some guy used to play at this club. And one day the manager came and told him that he can't use Ableton anymore, because the guest DJ (who was playing on CDJs) told the manager that he couldn't play on them as good as the Ableton Live one could.

I hope you understand my laste sentence!

Jason

alright ...
basically, when i'm in the audience, i'd like to listen to a good dj-set, no matter what equipment the dj uses.

i mean, i went to borgore & tomba the other night. borgore's set was ok, but tomba's was just pure shite ... he was using serato + a regular vinyl pickup ...
i'd rather have he'd go digital all the way and listen to some quality mixing instead of him trying to mix vinyl and failing miserably.

Can't disagree with you but then I hate the fact these guys make good money to headline events and they can't even perform at all. It's why I would rather stay at home and make beats than support this garbage. Go out to see guys like Reso or N-Type instead because they know how to rock a crowd.

i really think lack of tension/energy is the performers fault, not abletons. it's just software!

traditional two song mixing on ableton is easy and doesn't take much skill, so obviously anyone can do it. but just like mixing vinyl, not everyone can do it well. i dont think the two should really be compared because imo they're totally different beasts. if i wanted to just mix and blend two songs i'd be saving up for vinyl, no doubt. but there's no denying the potential and possibilites of live + a good midi controller in the right hands....it's a totally different way of working.

static_cast wrote:in other words: it's no fun.

Said from someone who has experience DOING it, or just has a judgement ABOUT it?

Cuz when I used Ableton I had HELLA fun, chopping up tunes, tossing in loops from other genres, using dub echoes on snares and sounds, taking only the best part of a song and mashing it with another awesome tune.

I used a MIDI controller and just worked the shit outta that fucker. Don't TELL me I didn't have fun, because I always did.

Also, "tension" from beatmatching? Are you DAFT? If there is any difficulty to beatmatching after about 3 months into learning DJing, then frankly, you SUCK at it. Beatmatching is a SKILL, and not a particularly creative or difficult one at that. Creativity goes beyond skillsets, and moves into how to put music together, how you express your thoughts, and what you are trying to say. If all you know how to say is "I can beatmatch", then I would be more entertained watching a friggin' mime.

I will say tho, if anyone wants to use Ableton, stop thinking about it in terms of just 2 decks RIGHT NOW! If you don't do anything more creative than attempt to mimic the basic DJ setup, it WON'T be fun. You have UNLIMITED tracks (turntables), drum racks to create live drum fills, can loop anything, can chop up tunes and live remix/edit them on the fly, BPM or genre is not a limit anymore, you have unlimited effects...just using it for "2 turntables" is a travesty.

It's all subjective, and whatever allows YOU to express your creativity in the best way is what you should use. I don't think for one second anyone else's opinion really matters on this subject but the person's doing the choosing.

"The reasonable man adapts to the world around him. The unreasonable man expects the world to adapt TO him. Therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men." - George Bernard Shaw

I always approach this whole laptop vs. vinyl dj'ing topic with some trepidation and indeed it has been talked on extensively. But what I will say is this: I have been DJ'ing records for 16 years now and will continue to do so everyday. I also use Ableton as my main production DAW and have been messing around DJ'ing with it and doing hybrid Live PA/DJ sets with it and it is just fun, plain and simple. There is loads that you can do with it and you are not trapped in the traditional dj interface (turntables).

A wack DJ is a wack DJ no matter what the medium.

Now I'm off to go tear up some records. I just took apart my mixer and lubed up the faders and they are once again smooth....

spot on, shiva

wayoftheworld wrote:spot on, shiva

Seconded.

people can hate, but i make bomb mixes with live. and yes i'm often doing 3 things at once. if i'm not worrying so much about beatmatching (which DOES happen, it's not like i don't know my shit) then i can put that energy into the overall journey that i'm taking my audience on, also glitching, filtering, delay sends, and samples. also, if i feel one record is lacking at any moment, i can mix ANY record i've ever made in for extra flavor. w/o having to go thru crates or CDs.

always kinda funny how some people just get SO heated when these types of conversations turn into debates about dvs versus traditional or ableton versus everything else.

keeping with the topic of this thread: the whole ableton/serato collab software - The Bridge - will take the possibilites of live sets in a completely new direction with the dvs integration. this mean big things for live users already comfortable using serato, lots of doors opening for experimentation! i started a thread about this a while back hoping to spur some intelligent conversation about said possibilities, but the only ones that replied were weary, non-ableton users

It's just a new tool in djing that's all. Whatever you feel the best using is really what you should do. You can do things with Ableton that you can never do with just decks. Use that to your advantage.

wayoftheworld wrote:always kinda funny how some people just get SO heated when these types of conversations turn into debates about dvs versus traditional or ableton versus everything else.

keeping with the topic of this thread: the whole ableton/serato collab software - The Bridge - will take the possibilites of live sets in a completely new direction with the dvs integration. this mean big things for live users already comfortable using serato, lots of doors opening for experimentation! i started a thread about this a while back hoping to spur some intelligent conversation about said possibilities, but the only ones that replied were weary, non-ableton users

Looking forward to the Bridge as soon as I can invest in Serato. It seems like some people think that they have to choose one method of DJ'ing and that's it, and perhaps this is good if you are just starting out. For me though, I will use whatever depending on the specific scenario. I've done all vinyl sets, all cdj sets, all ableton sets and various hybrids of the above.

The only important thing is if you are connecting with the audience and rocking the dancefloor.

EZ

I have a bunch of ideas for The Bridge that I have been discussing with a friend who has also used Serato and Ableton in various incarnations, and we are both jazzed as fuck just thinking of the possibilities.

But I think part of the reason that people haven't been all that vocal about it here, is the same reason they are SO vocal about Ableton. They're lazy. And they don't want to admit it.

So many people think beatmatching two tunes together is a monumental task that deserves lavish praise. I mean, they may actually break a sweat if they attempt to do more than one thing!

djshiva wrote:I have a bunch of ideas for The Bridge that I have been discussing with a friend who has also used Serato and Ableton in various incarnations, and we are both jazzed as fuck just thinking of the possibilities.

But I think part of the reason that people haven't been all that vocal about it here, is the same reason they are SO vocal about Ableton. They're lazy. And they don't want to admit it.

So many people think beatmatching two tunes together is a monumental task that deserves lavish praise. I mean, they may actually break a sweat if they attempt to do more than one thing!

Do you really think people think that? lol Maybe they do I dunno. I think the whole djing thing has been cheapened by technology or maybe it is more like it makes it easier to see it for what it is. Playing other peoples music yay. I will admit I am lazy but at the same time I would rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard then someones "crazy live remix". Tune sounded pretty good before ya chopped it up and put whacky effects on it. (general you there not pointing fingers) I have plans to start working on a live outfit using albeton and all that shit but I am not going to be playing other peoples music with it. Anyone can do that.

That said I have enjoyed some Shiva Live sets over the years but of course I know you are pretty sick on whatever medium you choose and that is the difference between you and most laptop dj's.

Yes people do think that mixing is hard. People in general are very ignorant to how easy it is to mix. It used to kill me when I'd see mix dj's beat out Q-bert in the mixmag poll for best DJ. Just hilarious...